[Suggestion] Coop Racing & Score Whoring

The coop scoring system incentivizes player 'racing' to score, and score whoring (to get the most kills or take out single action objectives) -- at the expense of teamwork, and in many cases even at the expense of other players; where racing players run in front of someone trying to cover movement and getting killed or getting the covering player killed unnecessarily.

If this were an infrequent thing it wouldn't be an issue but it's not; there are even servers with messages that try to discourage and even moderate it -- but it wouldn't be a difficult issue to solve or at least ameliorate dramatically as players that support their team, play fair, cover from outside an objective, or cover someone trying to demolish an objective aren't currently rewarded, at all...

One way to approach this would be to reward players that cover outside objectives that execute "x" number of kills, say six or more, or some percentage of the average inside the objective get objective capture points too. This would reward realistic cover and support, more importantly remove the incentive for racing, and incentivize more realistic and complete use of the map.

Similarly rewarding one player for getting to a weapons cache first isn't realistic or even an honest achievement, as it's very easy to game the game and get there first if that's all you want to do. Instead, why not reward every surviving player when the objective was demolished, as all have played some part in getting someone in to demolish an objective...

Standing there looking at the guy running to the objective isn't much of an achievement either. How would you define "covering" in game? If it's long range kills, you'll get an even worse kind of "score whore" - the useless sniper who goes prone in the back trying to get "cover" kills.

last edited by cyoce

So, you know how in DoI this isn't a problem? Because the guns are lethal, the AI is accurate and they respawn continually not just on objectives?

You push up as a team, in a coordinated manner, or you die.

Sandstorm has been aimed at the 12 year old crowd. This running around like a prick thing is by design.

@cyoce said in [Suggestion] Coop Racing & Score Whoring:

Standing there looking at the guy running to the objective isn't much of an achievement either. How would you define "covering" in game? If it's long range kills, you'll get an even worse kind of "score whore" - the useless sniper who goes prone in the back trying to get "cover" kills.

No coop score system is ever going to be perfect and you can knock holes in anything based on what one player does, or doesn't do based on yet some other player's assumption of what he should be doing... More important is how a score system effect net game-play for most players, and how much work is it to implement to get there.

The suggestion here isn't my idea; it's based on what has been implemented in a lot of ArmA coop mods, and works very well to ameliorate exactly the problems we see on Insurgency Sandstorm coop servers (and Insurgency for that matter).

To answer your objection directly: I haven't suggested rewarding long range kills, or even kills per se, there are many ways this can be implemented but the simplest is the easiest to implement, is proven to work, and even someone that's literally just observing at distance, that stays alive, and giving players reconnaissance is far from useless, and it's far better to reward someone that's even failing at this but staying alive, then it is to reward someone that's racing and score whoring.

You can't micro manage players with even the most elaborate and expensive score system, but you can have a strong positive effect on how the game is played, and even have a significant effect on how most neck down players that are just there to score whore play -- as they quickly intuit what's rewarding and isn't...

last edited by Hoak

The run and gun lone wolf style of play is a conscious design decision made by NWI.

Tactical team play does not fit into their model.

@hoak How do you define "just observing"? So you're suggesting rewarding people for one of the below:

  • how long they stay alive
  • "observing" and not getting kills (thereby punishing players for getting kills)
  • watching someone who gets kills/captures objectives
  • looking at areas that have no friendlies or enemies but may have enemies in the future
  • holding down the voice chat button while doing the above

Or something else? I'm still not sure how you would suggest a reward system for "observing" would be implemented.

I think it would be simplest to keep the current model: reward people for doing things. If your "observation" point doesn't give you LOS to any enemies, that's your fault.

@cyoce said in [Suggestion] Coop Racing & Score Whoring:

@hoak How do you define "just observing"? So you're suggesting rewarding people for one of the below:

  • how long they stay alive
  • "observing" and not getting kills (thereby punishing players for getting kills)
  • watching someone who gets kills/captures objectives
  • looking at areas that have no friendlies or enemies but may have enemies in the future
  • holding down the voice chat button while doing the above

Or something else? I'm still not sure how you would suggest a reward system for "observing" would be implemented.

I think it would be simplest to keep the current model: reward people for doing things. If your "observation" point doesn't give you LOS to any enemies, that's your fault.

I understand your concern, but I'm not suggesting rewarding players for observing, (and probably should not of illustrated those options) or any other manner of self-described play intention that may or may not be working in general or in any particular game; I'm suggesting the simplest approach to coop scoring for a positive effect on game play that is not rewarding players for racing and score whoring, that's it.

The digression regarding examples where some player(s) that might live through a capture might actually be doing something to support their team is a corollary possible positive outcome, that is certainly better then the alternative we're currently stuck with -- not a design goal as part of my suggestion.

The point I was making is even in a worst case scenario where someone is failing in a passive role that somehow survives and is rewarded objective points is far less onerous, bogus, and destructive as far as what it incentivizes and rewards then current system that rewards players for racing and score whoring.

Many agree the current coop score system pretty much always rewards unrealistic, destructive, uncooperative game play and punishes those that are looking for more realism, tactical depth in cooperative play. Dealing with large context issues rather then minutia and micro managing player intentions is a much more realistic lower cost approach to results many appear to want.

last edited by Hoak

Ive said it in other threads on this topic. I fully advocate for the removal of scoreboards in Co-op...it serves "NO PURPOSE" in the INTENDED game mode of "COOPERATIVE - PLAYER VERSUS ENVIRONMENT" game mode.....where in any of what I just said does it necessitate a score board? It is driving cooperative gameplay into the ground...

@max80 said in [Suggestion] Coop Racing & Score Whoring:

Ive said it in other threads on this topic. I fully advocate for the removal of scoreboards in Co-op...it serves "NO PURPOSE" in the INTENDED game mode of "COOPERATIVE - PLAYER VERSUS ENVIRONMENT" game mode.....where in any of what I just said does it necessitate a score board? It is driving cooperative gameplay into the ground...

Another post, that I agree with in principle whole heartedly, but NWI/FHI have chosen a design direction that looks like it is at some point intended to help monetize the game, ergo points and a cash alternative for uniforms and gear. If that's the case I sure can't hold any ill will for an indie developer trying to make money -- they have to eat too!

While it wouldn't be unreasonable for them to say: "Ok, you want sexy gear and uniforms, we got 'em but you gotta pay, cash only!" -- which would completely obviate any need for coop scoring, and I personaly wouldn't mind one bit, it seams almost certain there'd be an uproar by those that want this sort of thing the way it is.

Working game developers have to find a happy median that reaches a broad audience and gives them some opportunity to make money -- we may not agree that the path they've chosen is the most prudent as far as the design choices it requires, and in fact it may not even be the most lucrative, but it appears to be a direction they're committed to.

As things are, a simple low cost 80:20 approach to the coop scoring system can obviate most of the arcade Rambo smash, score whoring race that prevails on so many coop servers. Of course it won't solve everything, that's literally impossible -- even without a coop scoring system there's still no way to micro manage errant, noob or ill willed players on public servers.

I'm impressed by Insurgency Sandstorm, the progress they've made, and if this continues as it has, and as it did for Insurgency it will be another all time favorite and very successful game.

last edited by Hoak

@hoak - Honestly the only reason I dont like it is that its forced on me in public gameplay. give me a queue that has it turned off "for everyone" - allow 2 separate queues. if people want it fine play with other people just like you....give the rest of us a public queue of our own.

last edited by Max80

@max80 said in [Suggestion] Coop Racing & Score Whoring:

@hoak - Honestly the only reason I dont like it is that its forced on me in public gameplay. give me a queue that has it turned off "for everyone" - allow 2 separate queues. if people want it fine play with other people just like you....give the rest of us a public queue of our own.

I agree, an option would be nice, but, to be fair no one is being 'forced ' -- we all chose to buy the game after all, and play it (or not) after we've bought it. Hopefully NWI sees there are obstacles to sustaining and growing people's interest, and looks more closely at what people are saying.

To be fair though, NWI has lavished a lot of time and effort on its content/reward system, and even though I'm not a fan of the 'dress your combat Barbie thing ' , and it doesn't even work for me as I get no rank or stats. So, I can understand narrowing both focus and options offered early on to ferret out bugs, prioritize elements and content critical to the game being playable and earning revenue.

I do hope something's done with the coop score system -- that NWI doesn't suffer from 'not invented here ' or 'authorship bias ' and gives what seems like the lion's share of players what they're looking for here...

But again to walk it all back; game development requires an enormous amount of work, some of it is challenging and frustrating, so even easy to roll features like this that will have a significant effect on coop play share can get side lined or ignored entirely if developer(s) aren't convinced (or aware) of the significance of the consequences...

last edited by Hoak

@max80 said in [Suggestion] Coop Racing & Score Whoring:

Ive said it in other threads on this topic. I fully advocate for the removal of scoreboards in Co-op...it serves "NO PURPOSE" in the INTENDED game mode of "COOPERATIVE - PLAYER VERSUS ENVIRONMENT" game mode.....where in any of what I just said does it necessitate a score board? It is driving cooperative gameplay into the ground...

Though it might be a good idea only to keep the names on the board to keep track of who is alive and where they are

@divine-heroine said in [Suggestion] Coop Racing & Score Whoring:

@max80 said in [Suggestion] Coop Racing & Score Whoring:

Ive said it in other threads on this topic. I fully advocate for the removal of scoreboards in Co-op...it serves "NO PURPOSE" in the INTENDED game mode of "COOPERATIVE - PLAYER VERSUS ENVIRONMENT" game mode.....where in any of what I just said does it necessitate a score board? It is driving cooperative gameplay into the ground...

Though it might be a good idea only to keep the names on the board to keep track of who is alive and where they are

Another great post! Without exception, in every venue I've mention this with respect to coop tactical realism games with linear individual score systems, the response is has been strongly positive and very constructive...

Even posts that are a little on the harsh side strongly favor a change that deemphasizes or removes individual scoring entirely, and they're just sore because they still care about the game, and are disappointed at seeing too much attention given to being like other games (COD) and less to realism, teamwork, and differentiation.

Keeping some form of score system intact, that rewards and focuses players on cooperating with their team, rather then chasing butterflies or scoring a new pair of ruby slippers and a thong by running their team over would probably appeal to and sustain the largest audience...

A coop score system, just like player stats doesn't have to show what's happening in real-time, as even the most well executed system could still incentivise some manner of errant behavior or exploit it's designed to discourage.

last edited by Hoak

@hoak - why dont we introduce a system of ribbons and medals? instead of points? ribbons and medals awarded for unselfish behavior correct? so instead of points being tracked during the match why not award ribbons and medals at the end of the match when you look at your OWN individual achievements (alone, not in front of others).

@max80 said in [Suggestion] Coop Racing & Score Whoring:

@hoak - why dont we introduce a system of ribbons and medals? instead of points? ribbons and medals awarded for unselfish behavior correct? so instead of points being tracked during the match why not award ribbons and medals at the end of the match when you look at your OWN individual achievements (alone, not in front of others).

Now that is something I haven't seen in any game from my experience. If anyone knows, I think we would be interested

last edited by Divine Heroine

@max80 said in [Suggestion] Coop Racing & Score Whoring:

@hoak - why dont we introduce a system of ribbons and medals? instead of points? ribbons and medals awarded for unselfish behavior correct? so instead of points being tracked during the match why not award ribbons and medals at the end of the match when you look at your OWN individual achievements (alone, not in front of others).

I think that's a great idea too! In my experience the current 'combat Barbie's shopping mall' CMS/rewards scheme is enormously expensive and wastey of Developer time and effort, does not have as much revenue potential as other approaches, and conveys the wrong message in more serious realism games. I'd much rather see Developer's fixing, refining, and adding meaningful content to games, then DLC and CMS rewards you can also buy, and make more money in the process.

The problem, and it's an important and challenging one to solve: how does a smaller indie Developer monetize a game? Lacking a massive Publisher steered production and advertising budget (thank god) they still have to find a way to make a steady revenue stream, it's harder still once your well down a certain path or approach -- and Developer's publishing and selling on Steam don't make much.

Personally I don't mind paying extra money for content, I like supporting independent Developers, and have deliberately paid full boat and bought everything Bohemia Interactive and most of what New World Interactive makes for myself and a dozen or so friends for that reason. I especially like Bohemia Interactive's content model that for the most part doesn't segregate players between those that have and those that don't the way map based expansions used to, and has made them a lot of money that they have returned many fold in value in their games.

It would be nice if NWI took more inspiration from BI's approach then RPG's and action arcade games then they apparently do -- but they may have a production pipeline that works well with this approach and have done a proper job of accounting on what they believe can earn with it (I hope), and can make this not just sustainable but lucrative income from this approach.

I would agree with fans like jballou, cyoce, you, and Divine Heroine -- seem to imply in that NWI may be trying to do the 'cross-over' in bridging the tactical realism audience and action/arcade realism from the wrong side of the road; as it's always easier to subtractively make a realism game more accessible, but much more work to go the other way.

last edited by Hoak

@hoak - Well I do personally advocate for personalizing our characters...Not a lot...but enough to make it your own. I dont want to take it as far as other games do. for ONE reason only...it helps when your hud is turned off. And I do that often. So when people see my headband and glasses with hair slicked back my friends know its me when we are playing together. Strangers wont know and thats ok.

@max80 said in [Suggestion] Coop Racing & Score Whoring:

@hoak - Well I do personally advocate for personalizing our characters...Not a lot...but enough to make it your own. I dont want to take it as far as other games do. for ONE reason only...it helps when your hud is turned off. And I do that often. So when people see my headband and glasses with hair slicked back my friends know its me when we are playing together. Strangers wont know and thats ok.

I think that's fine too... I'm not opposed to this, I just want NWI to make money -- as all the pet wishes posted here how ever good won't go anywhere I they're not at least sustainable. Wouldn't you be willing to pay a little extra for a 'customization add-on' that let you tweak your character more then people that didn't buy this? This way there'd be no shopping rewards in the game, NWI would get remunerated more directly for their time and effort, and you could vote the work and features you wanted with your wallet.

For example: maybe you don't want or need female characters, or care if your character is customized beyond certain aspects of personalization. Maybe even buying a class expansion would work for certain classes...

Again, we all have our pet wishes, but this has to be economically sustainable for NWI to continue -- I started this thread because I've seen the romp and stomp race to score whore design discourage more then a few players across more then a few different products and in many, many games, I think it's a real obstacle to the appeal of the game, that doesn't just satisfy my pet wish, but offers an answer to attracting and keeping more players playing and buying the game.

last edited by Hoak

@hoak its frustrating for sure because we see the potential but views clashing are making it hard to progress. I need to go lay down ive got a really savage chest cold...I feel weak and I am shivering so hard from the fever I am practically vibrating LOL....and honestly wouldn't mind someone putting me out of my misery right now....Ill see you guys in the game later hopefully.

I remember reading something relating to this topic that's about extrinsic and intrinsic rewards
Video: Intrinsic vs Extrinsic - Designing Good Rewards in Games by Extra Credits on Youtube
.PDF file about "Video Game Reward Types The Player Experience - QUT ePrints"
For anyone skeptical about viewing or downloading a .PDF file, try tools like this online viewer or if you're paranoid, use a virtual machine for the session
Watch vids if you guys aren't the type to read (at least skim to important parts)

last edited by Divine Heroine