Hardcore Mode feedback

So, I've played a couple hours on the CTE, and I'm liking a lot of the new changes. I've got a couple items that I wanted to address and/or call attention to.

Player Icons
As a radio operator, I can be inside radio distance to my commander, and not see his icon. I have to be nearly on top of him to see it.

It's not a huge deal when playing other classes, but I think it should be a little less drastic of a change here. Either make the commander visible at longer distances to observer, or maybe have it so once a player identifies a friendly, they see that icon until the other player is out of line of sight?

In real life, I can see my friend and know who he is based on a lot of visual and audio clues that the game lacks, so the removal of the HUD here doesn't add challenge as much as add confusion to a situation where we should be encouraging better teamplay.

Mosin spawn

I just don't like this, for a lot of reasons. I think the limited gear until resupply is actually a good idea, but the way it's currently done makes it a chore.

  • If I join a game in progress, or I don't pick my loadout before the first spawn, then my very first spawn in game has no kit. This is bad, and should be pretty non-controversial to fix.
  • As security, with the limited icons and number of enemies, I had a couple times where I shot a friendly rounding a corner because I saw the insurgent weapon and reflexively expected an insurgent to be holding it. At least giving security an M24 might help with this, but even better would be...
  • The respawn kit should either be the default loadout for that class, or just an AKM/M16 and a couple mags. I like the idea that there's an additional long-term cost to dying, but especially for the gunner and demolitions class, that death also has a huge cost to the rest of the team in overall combat effectiveness. Even just spawning with limited ammo, no armor, or other less drastic but persistent debuffs would make this a lot better at adding difficulty without annoyance.

Bot counts and positioning

This is pretty good, I played about ten games and everyone seemed to agree that the number of bots, and their initial positioning, was good. I've still seen a lot of conga lines of bots running into the beaten path of my M249 getting stacked like cordwood though, and while some bots break contact and flank, a lot are still just state flipping between laser beam and brain damaged.

Roles

I think I'd rather see the number of roles reduced, than to just have 1 player for each slot. I think that it would be nice to have 1 commander, 2 observer, 2 gunner, 2 demo, and 1 marksman/advisor. The lack of resupply coupled with increased enemy presence means that we need to have more firepower to make it through, so having the ability to double machine guns and explosives would make that a lot more fair. Especially on the long range maps, we don't need to have dedicated CQC guys, and the importance of support means we really should have an extra radio man.

Resupply

There should be additional places on the map to grab magazines, or limit equipment so that magazines can be easily shared among squad mates. I've played several matches through with 40+ kills and 0 deaths, and I run out of demo after one point and spend the rest of the map thirsting for a dang resupply. This could also be offset by giving grenadiers 12 rounds for the 40mm, or having all members of the squad carry a box of ammo for the machine gun. Making this harder on people who die is reasonable, making it an experience where the player has to ration ammo on weapons that should be firing to protect the team isn't as much.

I haven't tried hardcore mode but the mosin idea needs to go. Why would a ̶U̶S̶ Security soldier carry an ancient relic from the bronze age.
I think everyone should spawn with whatever gear they selected, but maybe spawn with a max of 4 mags (2 for the LMG maybe), no matter what carrier you have. Also no extended mags should be allowed. I really liked when Sandstorm announced they will bring only weapons that can be found on the battlefield, but I think this should be true for attachments as well. For example extended mags should not be present in this mode (I mean sometimes it gives almost double the amount of rounds you have and doesn't even slow you down).
What I'd suggest for hardcore mode is also maybe placed IEDs on the roadsides ( 2/map is more than enough). When a player gets near a very strange looking trashbag or whatever. It should blow up.
The placing of these IEDs should be randomized across the players' routes (more realistically near roads). But do not use a trillion of these, as these could become irritating after you blew up for the 3rd time in 1 game.

Yeah, adding things like demo traps, ambushes where the bots stay in position while another team flanks, and other mechanics would be cool.

I like the idea of defaulting to a basic class weapon. Another option could be letting the player choose between one of 3 configurations comprising of either a mosin, shotgun, or M16.

I'm really enjoying this mode for what it is - a hardcore challenge. I had already started playing with only a pistol and seeing whether I could survive off bot weapons, and this mode satisfies that urge.

@jballou Overall, this is pretty spot-on. I do like using the Mosin, however, as it definitely adds to the challenge of the mode itself, but you can still counter the downsides of the bolt-action with some good tactics. Kinda wish you got a different pistol, though, like maybe a Hi-Power, since goddamn that thing is garbage.

The issue with spawning in with a naked AKM or M16A4 is that the mode would be so much easier. This could be balanced by making the AI even more brutal (i.e the IED traps you were talking about sounds awesome and terrifying) but starting with an AR would make the gamemode too easy for me. I pretty much already run weapons stock, with maybe a sight mod or a suppressor, so an M16 on respawn would allow me to wipe waves of bots with little difficulty, and I think being forced to spawn in with a Mosin encourages more teamplay (i.e covering your buddy while he's bolting/reloading).

I also wish there were a lot more of those small ammo cans, but have them spread out all over the map in different areas so you'd have to explore a little to find them. I think that would also help encourage players to flank the objectives more often.

last edited by MarksmanMax

For Hardcore mode a naked M16 or AK would make more sense to get when you respawn, even if it only has one or two mags.

last edited by KahleKingzTV

Hey @jballou thanks for the excellent feedback, I've passed this on to the development team! Great to hear you're liking the new changes. 🙂

Another issue I think is the speed reduction and sprint animation. As they stand, these things just don't work and actually detract from the mode.

The speed reduction feels very unnatural and seems more like an imposition of artificial difficulty than an actual challenge. It feels less tactical and more like someone strapped lead weights to your legs. This is especially frustrating given the expansive nature of most maps and the distance between points, especially when coupled with the reduced resupply options.

I think that the speed reduction needs to be replaced, since it feels artificial and less and challenge and more a handicap.

Some alternatives to this, which would IMO add a more natural feeling challenge, would be:-

  1. Only allow sprinting in short bursts, with substantial cooldown between sprints.

  2. Add in extra objectives per area to force teams to split up and allow for tighter gameplay for each team with greater pressure, essentially allowing for the advantages of smaller teams without the need to split servers (this also adds some much needed variety to maps, creates a meta game of splitting specialists as per the objective and ups the requirement for coordination and communication, without feeling like artificial difficulty; feeling challenging without feeling like a handicap).

  3. Giving fewer points for customization/loadout.

The Mandatory Mosin is another example of a perhaps unnecessary handicap that can be replaced with something more challenging and less artificial feeling, such as less frequent respawn points, for example. One could get a resupply at each point, while still feeling challenged by the enemy due to more enemies and/or the knowledge that they wouldn't be able to rejoin the fight for a greater amount of time.

last edited by cool_lad

@kahlekingztv said in Hardcore Mode feedback:

For Hardcore mode a naked M16 or AK would make more sense to get when you respawn, even if it only has one or two mags.

Even with two mags, I could body so many bots with an M16A4 with zero issues whatsoever. Plus, STANAG mags are the most commonly used magazine type in the game, so getting additional ammo would be pretty easy.

@cool_lad said in Hardcore Mode feedback:

Another issue I think is the speed reduction and sprint animation. As they stand, these things just don't work and actually detract from the mode.

That's interesting because you're one of the only people I've heard of who actually disagree with this.

As it stands now, the current run and sprint speed in Sandstorm in the other modes is far too fucking fast compared to Ins2014. The slower movement speed feels much more like the original and means you can't just leg it across an open field and survive.

The way its setup now, I feel the one who survived and capped the point (and respawns their teammates) is at a disadvantage, he'll have less health than his teammates. I would rather have a single life mode then, no respawns or at least a way to restore health for the survivors, even if its only once per spot (in normal checkpoint you can do it endlessly(?) after x amount of seconds)

Dear developers, сan you transfer the animation of running with a pistol (vertical position) on hardcore to the regular game?

last edited by SandMartin

I absolutely love everything about Hardcore Mode - except maybe classes limitation and mosin spawn. Running speed is great, bots are great, lack of indicators is great, it's a completely different better game I love it.

The only thing I'd change is remove the mosin spawn, and for resupplies I'd give the players a truck with supplies box to bring with them. This way it can be destroyed, they might rush too far and loose that ability, and they can have it with them when they need it, which is both more realistic than just finding pre-placed boxes AND a valid tactic of dealing with harder bots by increasing players firepower.

An even more hardcore, single-life "IRONMAN" mode would also be awesome.

last edited by Pakislav

This supports some of the things that were said above...

Now we have two halfbaked PvE modes.

The softcore fast-rush mode with it's commonly known problems and the new hardcore snail-rush mode with an additional "first I have to find a better weapon than a Mosin before I go on to the next objective".

Just reducing the overall moving speed doesn't change the general behaviour - it's more important what happens at the objectives. Increased capturing times and resistance would have more of the desired effects.

By the way... does anyone really think it's useful to walk away from a sharp grenade instead of fast sprinting away? Short time / short distance sprinting capability is important in alot of aspects, just add a massive stamina impact.

Eight slots, eight roles. I don't think it's a good idea to force players into a role that they can't or don't want to play. The result is server hopping.

And then... spawning with equipment that is not really useful. A reduced set of the original loadout would make more sense.

Yeah... and the bots only show some kind of sharpened fake-A.I. to create the the impression of "hard" bots.

Don't get me wrong, there is a very good idea behind this and I really would enjoy a clever made challenging mode, however, in the current state it's just halfbaked.

Currently nothing fits completely.

@Helsing1789 said in Hardcore Mode feedback:

Just reducing the overall moving speed doesn't change the general behaviour

I've noticed a huge difference in behavior of players.
They stick together, otherwise they'll get killed and will likely kill friendlies.
They move slowly, even more slowly than the movement speed would indicate, and wait for others.
They are more careful taking shots, since they have to recognize targets.
Everyone seems to get on objective at about the same time, except for useless snipers of course... remove snipers and sniper scopes altogether plox NWI, that's this games greatest flaw!

@Pakislav said in Hardcore Mode feedback:

@Helsing1789 said in Hardcore Mode feedback:

Just reducing the overall moving speed doesn't change the general behaviour

I've noticed a huge difference in behavior of players.
They stick together, otherwise they'll get killed and will likely kill friendlies.
They move slowly, even more slowly than the movement speed would indicate, and wait for others.
They are more careful taking shots, since they have to recognize targets.
Everyone seems to get on objective at about the same time, except for useless snipers of course... remove snipers and sniper scopes altogether plox NWI, that's this games greatest flaw!

In this regard my experiences are quite mixed so far.

@Helsing1789 said in Hardcore Mode feedback:

...the new hardcore snail-rush mode with an additional "first I have to find a better weapon than a Mosin before I go on to the next objective".

Why, though? The Mosin does the job fine. You can actually use it in CQB in the same fashion that you'd use a shotgun if you've got decent aiming skills.

It's not like you're only given a Makarov and have to Escape-From-Tarkov your way to more gear.

@Helsing1789 said in Hardcore Mode feedback:

By the way... does anyone really think it's useful to walk away from a sharp grenade instead of fast sprinting away?

My issue with this situation is the bots being able to throw grenades precisely on your location.

@Helsing1789 said in Hardcore Mode feedback:

Eight slots, eight roles. I don't think it's a good idea to force players into a role that they can't or don't want to play.

It's how Ins2014 worked. Don't wanna play Rifleman/Support? Leave and join a different server.

@Helsing1789 said in Hardcore Mode feedback:

Yeah... and the bots only show some kind of sharpened fake-A.I. to create the the impression of "hard" bots.

I don't even know what the fuck this means. There's a lot of new bot behaviors that I've seen that are pretty interesting, but the old bugs still exist with the AI.

@Pakislav said in Hardcore Mode feedback:

I've noticed a huge difference in behavior of players.
They stick together, otherwise they'll get killed and will likely kill friendlies.
They move slowly, even more slowly than the movement speed would indicate, and wait for others.
They are more careful taking shots, since they have to recognize targets.

Yeah, this is typically what happens, and I love Hardcore mode for this reason. This mode actually makes teamwork happen in pub matches.

@Pakislav said in Hardcore Mode feedback:

Everyone seems to get on objective at about the same time, except for useless snipers of course... remove snipers and sniper scopes altogether plox NWI, that's this games greatest flaw!

Well, as a Marksman, I take a little offense to this statement lmao. I like sniping, sure, but even if I'm not going on the objective myself, I'm at least trying to help my team get there. I'm not just going for free kills, although with the current AI, my job as a Marksman is actually more dangerous than a Breacher lol.

last edited by MarksmanMax

@MarksmanMax then one mag it is, make your shots count 😉

last edited by KahleKingzTV

@KahleKingzTV said in Hardcore Mode feedback:

@MarksmanMax then one mag it is, make your shots count 😉

inb4 you pick up a weapon that has no magazine in it

@jballou I definitely agree a different start other than Mosin needs to exist. I think you could have Security forces start with the M870 with slugs for a similarly slow weapon. Or for complete parity have Insurgents get an AKM with a single mag and Security get an M16A4 with a single mag. It would still require some scavenging but would be a LOT more immersive than security forces using a Mosin Nagant. I even made a post dedicated just to that issue on the forums.