Toggleable optics : what's the point of using 1x optics/iron sights ?...

So, yeah... Just saw the new announcement for future updates...
You guys are gonna add the possibility to toggle the magnifier off 2x optics, and use the iron sights of the 4x scopes...

I mean, ok... What's the point of using anything else than 2x/4x scopes in the game, then ? Why in the world would you choose to give yourself a strong handicap by picking an optic which does not offer multiple zoom levels ? You basically just gave everyone the possibility of combining marksman and breacher role with a single attachement.

It's AP ammo shit all over again. In fact, it's even worse than that... I think I'm done with this game, tbh. It was a nice try, but it's not going anywhere serious. Even a snow map and night maps can't make up for all the terrible decisions that were made lately.

I might play it again to test updates, or in a few years from now if the solo campaign makes a come back, but I'll definitely stop hoping for a decent Ins2014 successor. It was fun until you tried to fix a recipe that was not broken.

Well, the 1x optics are still an improvement, and much more useful in the CQB maps. Plus you save a supply point that can then go into another attachment or equipment.

We're also getting more 1x optics, some of which seem to exclusively come in the 1x magnification.

As for iron sights on 4x optics. The sight will likely be much worse due to the presence of said 4x optic blocking your field of vision.

Toggleable optics??? Is this a joke?
So much for "commiting to loadout choice"...

This game will end up a meme...

@Bullet59 This.

They're just adding whatever the community "wants"... Not what the game objectively needs...
This will indeed end up as a giant meme game for streamers... Note that I have nothing against streamers, I just find it sad that NWI chose to go in that direction with what could otherwise have become a great Ins2014 successor...

@Grumf said in Toggleable optics : what's the point of using 1x optics/iron sights ?...:

@Bullet59 This.

They're just adding whatever the community "wants"... Not what the game objectively needs...
This will indeed end up as a giant meme game for streamers... Note that I have nothing against streamers, I just find it sad that NWI chose to go in that direction with what could otherwise have become a great Ins2014 successor...

Something that saddens me is NWI deciding to ignore Ambush until 2020. I think this is a pretty serious mistake, honestly.

They even mentioned in their post that the Frontline gamemode is quite similar to Push, so why add another gamemode that's similar to one that's already in-game? Add in something new, for Christ's sake. We've been complaining about Ambush for years, now. If Sandstorm had Ambush I'd be playing it religiously.

Frontline's similarities to Push are just gonna end up confusing all the new players, which is all that's left after the Ins2 vets left, including me.

EDIT: With the current broken-ass AI, just scrap Outpost and add Ambush instead. We Co-op players will be thankful for that.

last edited by MarksmanMax

Honestly this feature they will be adding is actually a good idea.
I bet you those toggleable optics will cost 55000 supply points while ridiculous non-existing extended mag cost 0.0001 supply points. At least in real life you can actually "toggle" your optics, unlike the retarded extended mags that not just give you a visually disguisting magazine, but also apparently gives you 1.5x more ammo.
The feature they need to remove is the extended magazine, not this.
This game is oriented towards CQB, so there's almost no maps, where constant high power scope is neccessary.

@Sgt-Kanyo Nope. The idea sucks. Everyone will use 2x-4x scopes, even if this means taking less ammo, and packing light/no armor. That's already 3-6 points saved. Whatever the attachement/accessory, it's worth abandoning for marksman + CQB capabilities.

Insurgency always have been about commiting to a loadout choice. Being responsible and fulfulling the purpose of what your build was made for. Now you might as well delete classes, and make every weapon accessible to every soldier. Doesn't matter that much now.

last edited by Grumf

It's the single most commonly requested accessory by people, including myself, and has been for a long time. I'm happy to see they're planning on it. I'm a bit confused why they mention using backup irons on the Specter instead of the large 1X/4X switch on the side, but we'll see.

We've had this discussion plenty of times on the forums before. Switched sights or backup irons are going to be a substantial FOV obstruction. Considering there are already players who religiously use irons instead of 1X sights for FOV reasons I doubt we'll see a switchable 2X magnifier become an accessory that "everyone" runs with.

THIS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!!! Some immersed coop player was probably like, "ooo yoggleable scopes! Pog yeet! Let's suggest it!"
Why are us pvp players getting updates that benefit coop and ultimately handicap pvp?
We want our own, special updates with stuff that optimizes pvp!

@CatNipples said in Toggleable optics : what's the point of using 1x optics/iron sights ?...:

THIS WHAT I AM TALKING ABOUT!!! Some immersed coop player was probably like, "ooo yoggleable scopes! Pog yeet! Let's suggest it!"
Why are us pvp players getting updates that benefit coop and ultimately handicap pvp?
We want our own, special updates with stuff that optimizes pvp!

I find it strange that you mention Coop getting more love than PvP considering how broken the AI in Cooperative modes currently are.

As a Marksman, 2x scopes are all I ever need. At least on low scope quality, I feel like they zoom in way more than two times, and the sight reticle stays in place while moving the gun around (useful for bolt-actions like the M24, as I can keep a dead-accurate sight picture while bolting, and for weapons with a lot of horizontal recoil like some LMGs). They're also already pretty usable in close quarters. Once this feature is implemented, the downside of a slightly-obstructed 1x optic is far outweighed by the crazy long-range capability of the 2x optic. Again, another bullshit meta NWI is adding in for casual players.

Just add in Ambush for fuck's sake. Sure, it's played by a minority of the Insurgency community, but the majority of that minority consists of long-time Insurgency veterans. NWI's too busy pandering to casual Push players to think about the long-term, I suppose.

@MAA_Bunny Yeah, sure. Let's also add corner guns, thermal vision, dogs when you get 7 kills in a row, a zombie and a battle royale mode while we're at it.

Let's do everything to please casual gamers, and let's forget what made Ins2014 so good. Like, you know... Classes and loadout commitment.

I guess we'll see, then. After the update, if everyone uses 2x/4x scopes with iron sights/toggleable magnifiers, I guess you'll be proud to have been part of the people that emptied the game of its original hardcore yet accessible nature...

@CatNipples As MAA Bunny has already pointed out, the balance of these sights has been discussed already and the conclusion was that 1X sights would not be obsolete. Either you'd get worse FOV or they may come higher priced (for stuff like the 2x holo).

This isn't balance armageddon; quite the opposite.

You want PvP issues; look at the foregrip and FAL meta instead of things that would be an improvement to the game and are easily balanced.

@cool_lad what do you mean fal and foregrip meta? Bruh, every gun has the ability to 1 shot you. I don't get this, "omg, he is using a foregrip on (insert gun). Must be fixed!!!!" Honestly, if the devs remove the foregrip from the fal, or any gun for that matter, I will just straight up quit the game because of people bitching on the forums like yourself. You are forgetting that coop isn't the only mode bro.

@Grumf said in Toggleable optics : what's the point of using 1x optics/iron sights ?...:

@MAA_Bunny Yeah, sure. Let's also add corner guns, thermal vision, dogs when you get 7 kills in a row, a zombie and a battle royale mode while we're at it.

I feel like this is a reference to something I don't understand. Dogs???

We have different ideas of "hardcore." I don't consider imposing an entirely arbitrary and unrealistic limitation on something to be making it more hardcore.

@CatNipples said in Toggleable optics : what's the point of using 1x optics/iron sights ?...:

what do you mean fal and foregrip meta? Bruh, every gun has the ability to 1 shot you.

Actually, about 75% of the guns in Sandstorm can't one-shot a player without a headshot, even if he has no armor.

Toggable scopes would be amazing, and since we have these 2x flip over magnifiers ingame I really think they should work on making them work like that, i.e. make them flippable. Would be amazing and just add to the immersion.

Why is "having a shitty experience" a thing people want to keep in?

There's already a supply cost to using these, and a time/channeling penalty for switching modes.

We shouldn't be making the game "harder" with poor UI choices.

@cool_lad said in Toggleable optics : what's the point of using 1x optics/iron sights ?...:

@CatNipples As MAA Bunny has already pointed out, the balance of these sights has been discussed already and the conclusion was that 1X sights would not be obsolete. Either you'd get worse FOV or they may come higher priced (for stuff like the 2x holo).

This isn't balance armageddon; quite the opposite.

You want PvP issues; look at the foregrip and FAL meta instead of things that would be an improvement to the game and are easily balanced.

Did the competetive oriented scene arrive at this "conclusion"? Let me refresh another perspective (not even gonna adress flippable 1x vs iron sight as it is of trivial concern to me when a magnifier is not in the stake):

"When I equip a 2x, it feels like I have sniper capabilities to quite a far distance without the disadvantage of getting tunnel vision by using a higher zoomed scope. At the same time as you mention my capabilities of clearing a room goes down, and I would either need to practice hip-fire to a great extent or be careful when approaching cqb objectives. In a pvp firefight some objectives will be better suited with a 2x than other ones, and if I am last man standing or need to approach an objective with cqb, maybe I would need to take into account that I would need to resupply without a scope or outsmart enemies by positioning myself in a way that my 2x will not put me in great disadvantage - Maybe also using a well placed frag or prefire through some walls or at some corners - This challenge makes the experience more thrilling and gives me the awareness that by thinking about my tactics in new ways and practice difficult scenarios gives me room to improve because the game will limit some options by my choice of equipment - During time, I will have preferred loadouts that may vary between maps and is one of the reasons I like games that forces the player to practice their skills and make choices with consequences to viable strategies. This creates incentive for players to choose different loadouts based on maps, personal skill and the role you would like to fill in the specific game you are joining. Games trying to fill a niche will always have players who have not yet found preferred strategies in several situations until it clicks and you get that - Aha, if I did this or that the next time it would have worked out better. The prize paid will always be that it is possible to never find the best strategies for some people and feel like the game mechanics are not optimal - The reward of finding solutions to the challenges created by not making loadouts that works great in all scenarios is a great feature in my opinion.

Edit: If you believe hybrid scopes does not affect game balance this post is a clear example of what a huge impact on balance it has. If you think everything can be balanced by point systems, costing more points so you cant afford armour, you are not very skilled in pvp because armour is useless for many skilled players so point balancing is not the solution to introducing OP features. And if you want this feature against bots, I say why not, go ahead, its not breaking the game as it will just be a way of lowering the difficulty for yourself."

@Grumf said in Toggleable optics : what's the point of using 1x optics/iron sights ?...:

So, yeah... Just saw the new announcement for future updates...
You guys are gonna add the possibility to toggle the magnifier off 2x optics, and use the iron sights of the 4x scopes...
I mean, ok... What's the point of using anything else than 2x/4x scopes in the game, then ? Why in the world would you choose to give yourself a strong handicap by picking an optic which does not offer multiple zoom levels ? You basically just gave everyone the possibility of combining marksman and breacher role with a single attachement.

Yes, I agree. My heart sunk in disbelief when reading it.

What you say is so obvious when you are a competetive player that enjoys skill-based pvp, yet NWI added this mediocre feature - I would hope it was a rushed, misunderstood decision based on hoping to accomodate the playerbase and that NWI will think hard about finally separating features introduced to pvp and pve pointed out by @CatNipples.

If NWI has a goal of creating a worthy successor to Ins2 regarding pvp in the long run, they need to analyze more carefully how many features that was already done brilliantly in Ins2 and include their colleagues with a passion for skill based pvp in the decision making.

I believe this decision is regarded as cringy for most competitive players, as I have little faith that they have any solid arguments why this feature would enhance the pvp experience, except bending to mediocre demand - Yes, inventing, changing and evolving is a good thing, but don't fix it if it aint broken. Sometimes less is more.

The pvp game will be less class oriented due to this change - There is no logical reasoning that could circumvent this fact.

Maybe a solution would be to introduce a new class that only it can use the toggleable optics?
But either way isn't it a correct addition since people that camp far away from an objective with 2x/4x can now move near the objective etc?

last edited by zefs