Deathcam poll, day 3

Hey buddies, the deathcam has been a skewed upon issue since its conception and we would like to gather community sentiment towards it via a public poll everyone can have their say in. As most of us already know the deathcam only hinders the gameplay of Insurgency: Sandstorm in more ways than it benefits and rewards lowered skilled play in all aspects of pvp. As a community we have the ability to petition their decisions in open opinion. https://strawpoll.com/2pr5wpcg

They want to help new players, right? So make the deathcam available only to players with rank < 100. After rank 100, no deathcam.

last edited by Congas

Death cams are nice, keep them

I disagree. Death cam is pretty nice in this game and I hope it stays across all levels. It depends on your playstyle of course, if you like to camp one spot you might hate death cams-> It forces people to move around and it make new players learn faster and thereby making it more fun to play against them. It makes gaining map knowledge a lot faster because you learn where you can be attacked from when new to the game.

btw I recently started playing this game in push gamemode after getting a solid rig and I got owned in the start - After learning some of the map layouts I more often have a good k:d ratio and help my team advance better. I liked the death cam ocasionally because it is not obvious which windows and roofs can be peeked from when new to the game, and unless you want to spend hours in the game to just figure that out (I don't want to spend my freetime like that because it is boring), a death cam is nice. Also it helps determine the deadline when beginning a match on a map or changing objective (how long u can rush from spawn until u meet enemy fire and at what angles.)

Deathcam does not hinder anything else than camping a spot for an extended amount of time without being a hotspot for enemy fire - > And that is great!

What skills should divide players in a fair match?
Map knowledge? Aiming skills? Teamplay? Proper use of equipment (smokes, prefrags, choice of scope, player weight, etc)?

How many players in this forum thinks about new players and how many just want to have the highest score? My bet is the polls on death cam could be a bit incorecct due to why people want it or not. Very few people new to the game would care to participate as joining game forum to talk would be a chore.

There is a lot of factors that will make skilled players win fights, and camping an unknown spot is just the only skill that will be taken away from players when death cam is there - There is so many spots to use in most levels anyway, and skilled players in versatility will mix up their positioning anyway.

It could be disabled in competetive* gamemodes, it could be disabled after lets say a certain play time in pvp (connecting it to player level which gets raised by shooting bots makes no sense it that regard NWI).

*ranked, not pvp in general ofc.

There is a lot of room for improvement in this game, but removal of death cam is not one of them.

TL:DR / Summary : If u r a versatile player death cam will not bother u , but it will definitely be good for new players. If u like more stale gameplay it will feel bad.

@chaton @Raibi : pls forward to NWI, they have asked for player feedbak on this particular topic.

Other ppl ideas on death cam https://www.reddit.com/r/insurgency/comments/fqt563/an_analysis_of_the_deathcam/

A player who is versatile and wont be bothered by death cam: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mq6oG1DVCZQ

last edited by Pacalis

Death cam makes the game more individualistic, focussed on making it easier on the individual player. This while using teamwork and communication to point out enemy locations etc. should be rewarded. Also slower methodical play, listening what's going/learning general awareness, how to move, how to push, all should be rewarded aswell, not run and gun revenge style of play.

Now the problem is alot of newcomers don't have this patience anyway, they expect to experience this immersion and realism while playing like they always do in other casual games. They will rush into objectives or into the positions of their last killer and die over and over agian anyway. Regardless of deathcam, they will still give up at one point.

last edited by ImTimKlonker

@ImTimKlonker

If all new players with no prior experience in this type of game would give up anyway, there would be no players in this type of game, so I don't buy that argument:D

All the factors you mention: teamwork and communication to point out enemy locations, methodical play, listening/learning general awareness, how to move, how to push is still rewarded.

Run and gun and revenge style of play will not be rewarded to any greater degree with or without death cam unless you stay very still. It is mostly a feature that will help players to learn all the weird spott players can shot from (which has nothing to do with skill other than map knowledge)

Also playing slow and methodical is your approach to the game, but by no means the only way to play, you can aIso play quick and methodical and the video I linked by breakthevices shows just that. I believe many share your view, but I also notice that a lot of objectives are lost when defending because the team is fiiled with slow and methodical campers that disregard the importance of playing the objective-> The game needs both type of players by all means, you also stay easier alive when playing it safe, but the short timers and distance between the objectives makes it very viable to also play aggressive. Playing aggressive does not equal to being mindless, all the aspects you mention also apply for quick play.

Also another factor to consider is that most casual game sessions does not consist of rapid radio communication, there is not many players who communicate by voice actively, and to be honest, if I meet players using the comm channel a lot with irrelevant information I sometimes block their voice because the voice will camouflage/remove the sound cues from enemy activity.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_MgzDyWnys
Look at this video and see some more adaptive gameplay, a death cam would help new players to understand some of his weirder shot angles - and therefore make them getting better faster (which is good for expanding the playerbase), but in no way be a disadvantage for him. Like I mentioned in the first post, only playing stale would be bad with death cam. If you have a slow and methodical playstyle and like to lock down lanes and you get a kill and are therefore "tagged" by a death cam, all you need to do when the next wave comes is make a slight change of position so that the "revenge" player miss the prefire and you take him out once again:)

@Pacalis

I'm not saying ALL new players give up anyway, I'm saying for the ones who do, I doubt the deathcam (supposed to be the solution to this very problem) is gonna make them stay. This game is just not for them. Regardless of deathcam you still need patience to learn the game if you're completely new to the genre, not everyone has that and not everyone likes this challenge.

Insurgency is just supposed to be more hardcore, the lethality and lack of information, makes you be more careful and 'fear' your life, making it more realistic, immersive and slower automatically. Being rewarded with information while dying, which is in alot of cases your fault for making a wrong decision, just changes the mentality of the player, thus changing the gameplay dynamics and effectively making it more run and gun. Ofcourse things like communication etc. is still rewarded but not the only way to gather information anymore.

Anyway, I'm all for it to help out new players, but the feature should only be for them, locked when reaching a certain level. In my opinion (and many others) it still influences the gameplay dynamics (non-positive way imo) and it just feels out of place in this game. Insurgency was always fine without it, and it should stay like it always was for more experienced players.

Btw, my playstyle is adaptive, in a whole lot of situations risks (aggression is needed) got to be taken, sacrifices got to be made and hesitation is no option.

last edited by ImTimKlonker

@ImTimKlonker

I agree Ins2 worked fine without it but the maps in sandstorm are much larger and could easily be seen as even more unforgiving on new players - After all NWI needs to cater to new players as well as veterans.

I think we both agree the impact of death cam is not a huge concern for versatile players and helps new players ease into the game for those who have the dedication and I agree it could be some sort of system that makes sure death cam is removed when players are experienced - I just believe a lvl cap could be a bit off as mentioned, explained:

New player starts Sandstorm and focus on coop to learn the basics and get a feel for the game and they level up there or a long time coop player wants to test pvp. Both these groups will need time to get used to pvp.

From what I understand xp is not separated if you play unranked pvp or coop so you can easily pass certain levels without having a single death cam in pvp. If NWI just incorporates when deciding for when to shut off death cam (hours played pvp and not lvl for example) it will be fine.

That's a good point about level cap, up to a certain amount of hours in pvp only would be better indeed. This would be the very best compromise of making the core fans and new players happy!

About impact of deathcam and versatility, I think we just can't agree on this tbf. What about classes that aren't so versatile? Like machine gunner or sniper. Also around most objectives there are only so many spots with good angles. A lot of playstyles have just been nerfed, like hiding in plain sight with suppressors and general playstyles of the classes I just mentioned.

I'm quite experienced, I also know the maps very well by now, but even to me it feels quite like cheating if I miss an angle, or make a tactical mistake in my movement and die because it (we all make mistakes), but yet get to see the exact spot of my killer.

So a middle ground between the added benefit for death cam for new players and the nuisance of it for some of the experienced players (not all) it could help for the nuisance u experience if a timer was applied (like an exclusion from seeing death cam after a certain amount of hours played in pvp).

Deathcam is pure trash. Its just another move of many by nwi to make the game ANOTHER run & gun bs shooter like 95% of all the games on the market. All of us should go to battlefield and cod forums and cry about the game being too casual and DEMAND that they add more tactical features since this seems to be a trend with any game that is tactical. All these cod sniper kids want the game made "easy" so they dont get their fragile emotions in an uproar and get frustrated. Andrew Spearin leaving nwi was the worst thing that ever happened to nwi. Give it a year and this game will just be another cod crap game that will die out. Especially once the new cod drops and all the morons nwi seems to cater too now leave. What a joke sandstorm has become. Sad. Me and others saw this coming when they got a publisher. Zombie mode, tdm, domination, and now this abomination of an idea. Utter garbage what nwi is doing.

@Rifleman said in Deathcam poll, day 3:

Deathcam is pure trash. Its just another move of many by nwi to make the game ANOTHER run & gun bs shooter like 95% of all the games on the market. All of us should go to battlefield and cod forums and cry about the game being too casual and DEMAND that they add more tactical features since this seems to be a trend with any game that is tactical. All these cod sniper kids want the game made "easy" so they dont get their fragile emotions in an uproar and get frustrated. Andrew Spearin leaving nwi was the worst thing that ever happened to nwi. Give it a year and this game will just be another cod crap game that will die out. Especially once the new cod drops and all the morons nwi seems to cater too now leave. What a joke sandstorm has become. Sad. Me and others saw this coming when they got a publisher. Zombie mode, tdm, domination, and now this abomination of an idea. Utter garbage what nwi is doing.

The funny thing is, if you play on hardcore in CoD, the cam is disabled. Personally, I think if NWI is going to include some of these more casual options, modes, etc., there should also be a hardcore option for those that want it. The issue for a game like this though is the possibility of splitting the relatively thin player base.

Personally, speaking as a console owner, I don't want Ins: Sandstorm to lose that hardcore edge. In fact, I loved the gameplay footage of the hardcore mode they introduced and I do hope it make it in to the console version. There are a lot of us who were or still are PC players that are dying for more HC games on console.

From what I've seen of the Sandstorm version of the deathcam, it doesn't look that bad by comparison to other casual shooters. I would rather the game didn't have it (or at least an option) but I accept and understand their reasons for including it.

Having a publisher may create an external decision-making dependency which is not favorable in that regard (most devs will benefit from a publisher in any case, but the devs own economic strength will affect how favorable the agreement can realistically be).

Gamers/consumers are also external dependencies, but unlike a publisher their criterias for generating income for a developer is more unpredictable for several reason (for example age, interests, culture, maturity, competing products, etc).

Game companies needs high adaptability to survive and will constantly throw at different angles to see what works with the consumers - NWI doing that is a good sign.

Wether death cam stays in the game or not is indifferent for me personally in my own gameplay as it is will rarely affect myself as I get bored camping the same spot for an extended period of time and unless you play against inexperienced players it should not mean much in any case as previously explained, but is good for attracting new players.

Games like cod always gets stomped on in the comment section (one of the greatest sucesses economically in gaming which is the main criteria any sensible dev will compare against) and players of such games often gets referred to as "kids" - kid just being a hollow description of people enjoying something else than yourself. I admit I have done the comparison myself even if players like Shroud is a proof also mature players excel in those types of games and the competitive skill ceiling is high.

What is sometimes lacking in gaming forum discussions is a consideration of perspectives outside the consumers own preferences, the acknowledgement and realization that there is a lot of factors that determines long time success, and that these factors will include elements not tailored to everyones subjective taste but still benefit the game as a whole, and therefore also benefit long time players.

New players and casuals is vital for economic success wether they move on after a short while or not, therefore the "pros" and "cons" of any specific gaming mechanic should also take this into account.

Death cams should not be a make or break feature for experienced players (anyone remember counter strike, I member) and certainly not if mechanics are incorporated to minimize the "cons" as have been suggested in this thread already.