The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK

Also: "Being out in the open" shouldn't be punished even more. You already get punished positionally. That's literally how it works. You put yourself into a bad position. That's already a punishment. It actually can be a valid strategy, as in: if you think you can out-aim someone, you take the risk of a bad position. It's ok for it to be a handicap, it's not ok for it to be a complete death-sentence.

If both players are equally good, the one with the better position will always win. That's independent of TTK obviously, as both players play the same game.

Making a "playstyle" completely unviable is barely a good idea most of the time, as it literally limits how a player can play a game. The most popular games are the ones, where players can express themselves in the game they play via how they play it. That's a big part of the fun.

@jensiii said in The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK:

I get your point about crossing open areas. It should feel dangerous. From my experience the issue is more about getting shot not affecting player movement. TTK feels fine imo, because enemy drops really fast when I get my aim on them. But feels weird, when I hit someone who is crossing an road for example and his running is not affected at all.

Your "proof" looks like a coop against bots, that shoot very inaccurately lot of the times 🙂 Video is from Karmakut and he plays coop most of the time in his Sandstorm-videos.

That's a PVP video. IMO there are a lot of reasons why this game no longer feels like a PTSD sim (larger maps and faster movement) and TTK is the big one.

@biass what? You thinking of DOI? INS was a pretty damn open game. Just getting to the "front lines" was a pretty dangerous task and I remember dying a lot just because I overestimated how safe certain areas were.

There were choke points in some maps, sure, but the game mostly consisted of holding those choke points with your gun and using smoke/grenades to move up.

@oldkingcole225 said in The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK:

That's a PVP video.

I double checked this and it's 100% COOP checkpoint. Objective and the timer in the HUD confirms this. You also able to see from the opponents movement that it's the AI bots (they stand still in the open alot).

I agree that slowing movement a bit when hit would be a good thing. Isn't it already like that in the previous game? Not sure anymore. Otherwise I would simply add that I also agree that being under fire (but not hit) shouldn't slow down or perhaps very slightly. But more specifically I think it should apply an effect on the player. Something that affects visibility and aiming, that reflects the stress of being under fire, pretty much like it is in the previous game, but maybe slightly more intense.

Now very slightly slowing down when under fire would make sense I think. It'd reward firing at running target and not impair running target too much. I'm talking maybe slow down 15-30% when hit, but slow down 5-10% under fire, possibly increasing (from 5 to 10) the longer you are under fire. E.g.: a single bullet only slows you down a tiny amount, momentarily, as if to simulate a a heart jump, but sustained fire causes your guy to panick and be weaker on its legs, slowing him down but very slightly. Just ideas anyway, figured I might as well be descriptive if I suggest something.

Also I dont get all the hate for Benz... He seems to have mostly valid points, but they seem to get disregarded and him punched down for merely showing annoyance. While I agree showing annoyance isn't the best way to respond, reading through this thread and a few others, I may have come to a similar reaction, just maybe I'd have kept it to myself. In any case, appears to me his detractors haven't exactly kept it classy either.

last edited by Coachon

@biass said in The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK:

Dropping movement speed on hit is an "okay" idea imo, but in regards to shark, both forced movement and also flinch mechanics can die in a fire, both painfully frustrating to deal with

Agreed.

@imacookie said in The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK:

@Best-Waifu About Hit Reg: You can test Hit Reg if it is a client side issue. Try local play and you'll notice that the bots, even with heavy armor go down in far less shots than in online especially when they are stationary.

I have tested in local play with deactivated AI (open debug menu with numpad "-" key) and the various visible vests don't do anything on the bots it seems.

@oldkingcole225 said in The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK:

@biass what? You thinking of DOI? INS was a pretty damn open game. Just getting to the "front lines" was a pretty dangerous task and I remember dying a lot just because I overestimated how safe certain areas were.

There were choke points in some maps, sure, but the game mostly consisted of holding those choke points with your gun and using smoke/grenades to move up.

Agreed. If we're thinking of close-quarters maps like Embassy or Ministry, then yes, there are some easy routes to enemy spawn. But if we think of others like Panj, Buhriz, Sinjar, Peak, or even Heigths, rushing to enemy spawn (or just running in the open) isn't exactly easy and always feels very dangerous.

Now I probably haven't played enough to be sure of this, but while I indeed saw it took much more to kill well-armored soldiers, playing smart and insisting usually gave me the kill. Also headshots don't seem too hard to hit in this game, it's been forgiving to me so far (which helps countering heavy armor). I mean, perhaps heavy armor needs to be slightly less effective, but I guess it is still higher tier equipment, thus should provide significant bonuses? Perhaps it should also slow you down more? Haven't used it yet, but I'm assuming, with the speed at which I run with light armor, that it's not that slow.

That said I think I need to play more. The TTK doesn't really feel too high atm, as I've been pretty lethal so far, but I'd rather believe the multitude of posts claiming it is too high, from players that have played it longer than me, for now.

last edited by Coachon

@coachon yeah, i barely have hitreg issues, some people seem to have more. I think a lot of this TTK "whining" comes from inconsistency. Bad hitreg happens and people try to blame TTK for that instead of hitreg. Or people put them both in the same corner.

Thursday update will fix hitreg and i bet movement. Pretty sure the Thursday update will be huge for gameplay.

@jensiii said in The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK:

@oldkingcole225 said in The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK:

That's a PVP video.

I double checked this and it's 100% COOP checkpoint. Objective and the timer in the HUD confirms this. You also able to see from the opponents movement that it's the AI bots (they stand still in the open alot).

Oops sorry I thought I had clipped this video (another from Karmakut) that's worse, although it might also be hit reg.

I think the main problem is that the way I see things with both games is that insurgency sandstorm is about to have an identity crisis.

If you can look at both insurgency 2014 and sandstorm, with both having enough hours clocked in to understand the game, you'll notice sandstorm is somewhat dumbed in someways.

The removal of AP/HP rounds, how OP heavy armor is, higher TTK (even with fixed hitreg it still feels like it), and the general sense of tension removed away it feels like the game is a dumbed down casual experience.

I'm a guy who loves playing tactical/milsim stuff. I even got 583 hours clocked in ARMA 3. However, I don't want insurgency sandstorm to change to become a high TTK slow paced tactical game. That just takes away the uniqueness and original formula insurgency has. The fun and moments I have for insurgency 2014 were all based on the tactical, high tensity, fast paced, and low TTK gameplay it had. Even on normal servers that had lower tick than community servers you can feel the both the intensity of incoming enemy gun fire and your gun inflicting damage on your enemies. Insurgency Sandstorm feels like it barely has the hardcore and fast paced gameplay it once had before.

Just removing the hardcore based aspects from insurgency 2014 in sandstorm is just removing the charm Insurgency has always had that no other shooter in the tactical shooter had generally aimed for. There are barely any shooters out there that blend in the game design of tactical shooters generally being slow paced to fast paced casual shooter genre so perfectly.

I don't want the game to change in the similar fashion to Rising Storm 2 and Squad. It'll just be swallowed up in the endless abyss of those games and lack any originality, uniqueness, and overall identity to it. The charm will be just gone for me and other insurgency vets who stood up to make the game retain a consistent player base for 4 long years that strives to be active and also be community content creators for mods in the workshop genuinely appreciating the game for what it is-something unique and something rare in the modern tactical shooter genre.

I get that Insurgency Sandstorm fans that are new to the franchise or people that didn't like the hardcore intensive nature INS2014 had but if you look it another perspective, you'll realize most tactical shooters in the genre don't even match up well to the unique kind of gameplay INS2014 aimed for. Insurgency at its heart has always been hardcore, tense, accessible, and with a high skill ceiling with this kind of gameplay.

Insurgency 2014 just felt almost perfect to me and other friends. The only problem we had was the fact the game was limited by its engine, that's it.

Insurgency Sandstorm is a great improvement, but the game being somewhat dumbed down feels a bit disappointing imo.

last edited by DerpyDays

@oldkingcole225 said in The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK:

@biass what? You thinking of DOI? INS was a pretty damn open game. Just getting to the "front lines" was a pretty dangerous task and I remember dying a lot just because I overestimated how safe certain areas were.

There were choke points in some maps, sure, but the game mostly consisted of holding those choke points with your gun and using smoke/grenades to move up.

I didnt play DOI, i skipped it because Australian playerbases are often too small to warrant a purchase.

Take District push for example, if you were defending you would run down the street until you got to the stairs, ran up said stairs and then just sprinted through the buildings until you A: lost an aim duel or B: you went down the opposing stairs and were in the enemy spawn

Siege is another good one, if you don't cross the street you''re basically fighting in a straight tunnel, if you're not weighing yourself down on weight you're often across the aforementioned street before anyone with the ability to hit you across the map is even setup.

about smoke: I come from CS and I can say with most certainty the average IN:S player is throwing a smoke without even knowing the basic mechanics of what it does. Sure it can up a new players confidence but even doing something like throwing a smoke and then not waiting for the smoke to disperse is actually just harmful to your push especially if you're on a timeframe. Also smoking your own team off? is very common too. lucky i don't really sit in a backline in this game much.

@coachon said in The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK:

Agreed. If we're thinking of close-quarters maps like Embassy or Ministry, then yes, there are some easy routes to enemy spawn. But if we think of others like Panj, Buhriz, Sinjar, Peak, or even Heigths

Those routes still exist on those maps but are not so clear cut, you just need to be aware of what routes are closed off at what time, running (as insurgent side) to one side to the houses of Panj early is not going to be covered by an enemy early on, it's impossible. but later on there might be someone holding it as the game progresses, Running far right, pushing the building and then going out to the wall gives you an easy peek down to the "spawn" but it's harder to trap enemies with such a large restricted zone compared to station where you can easily catch entire spawn waves running through an alley way early on. Buhriz is often an easy run to the OBJ with few sightlines but those said are often a lot larger then in CQB maps so some afk with a scope might outgun you if they know where to go, same goes for sinjar if you can pass an early cross. Havent played much of peak but im sure i remember some routes around the sides, don't quote me

@biass said in The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK:

@oldkingcole225 said in The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK:

@biass what? You thinking of DOI? INS was a pretty damn open game. Just getting to the "front lines" was a pretty dangerous task and I remember dying a lot just because I overestimated how safe certain areas were.

There were choke points in some maps, sure, but the game mostly consisted of holding those choke points with your gun and using smoke/grenades to move up.

I didnt play DOI, i skipped it because Australian playerbases are often too small to warrant a purchase.

Take District push for example, if you were defending you would run down the street until you got to the stairs, ran up said stairs and then just sprinted through the buildings until you A: lost an aim duel or B: you went down the opposing stairs and were in the enemy spawn

Siege is another good one, if you don't cross the street you''re basically fighting in a straight tunnel, if you're not weighing yourself down on weight you're often across the aforementioned street before anyone with the ability to hit you across the map is even setup.

about smoke: I come from CS and I can say with most certainty the average IN:S player is throwing a smoke without even knowing the basic mechanics of what it does. Sure it can up a new players confidence but even doing something like throwing a smoke and then not waiting for the smoke to disperse is actually just harmful to your push especially if you're on a timeframe. Also smoking your own team off? is very common too. lucky i don't really sit in a backline in this game much.

@coachon said in The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK:

Agreed. If we're thinking of close-quarters maps like Embassy or Ministry, then yes, there are some easy routes to enemy spawn. But if we think of others like Panj, Buhriz, Sinjar, Peak, or even Heigths

Those routes still exist on those maps but are not so clear cut, you just need to be aware of what routes are closed off at what time, running (as insurgent side) to one side to the houses of Panj early is not going to be covered by an enemy early on, it's impossible. but later on there might be someone holding it as the game progresses, Running far right, pushing the building and then going out to the wall gives you an easy peek down to the "spawn" but it's harder to trap enemies with such a large restricted zone compared to station where you can easily catch entire spawn waves running through an alley way early on. Buhriz is often an easy run to the OBJ with few sightlines but those said are often a lot larger then in CQB maps so some afk with a scope might outgun you if they know where to go, same goes for sinjar if you can pass an early cross. Havent played much of peak but im sure i remember some routes around the sides, don't quote me

District and Siege are both maps with choke points, but none of them have areas with a single choke point that you had to take aim duels with. There were great flank options in both maps and you could die way before you reached your allies at the frontlines just because a flank had been lost. I don't understand how you think these maps were maps that negated the fear of running from cover to cover...? Maybe you played Firefight most of the time?

@oldkingcole225 Gotcha. Yeah, hitreg is one thing people have issues with. Other is sprint acceleration & changing directions. I also think something needs to happen when people are hit while running (I don't think they should be able to run full speed after being hit). There's my fixlist regarding TTK 🙂

By tweaking the movement issues I mentioned, the feeling of the game can change quite a bit into the direction where some of the INS2 players here on the forum would like it to go (the ones who are suggesting 1-shot kills instead as a fix). Tweaking those would most likely slow the game down a bit, make people think more about crossing open areas, remove/diminish the benefit of strafing in a firefight and most likely make positional advantage to have more of an impact. All that by tweaking movement instead of damage/armor/health. Can't know for sure before testing of course, but this is what I'm imagining would happen when I'm thinking how it affects the gameplay 🙂

@oldkingcole225 said in The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK:

District and Siege are both maps with choke points, but none of them have areas with a single choke point that you had to take aim duels with. There were great flank options in both maps and you could die way before you reached your allies at the frontlines just because a flank had been lost. I don't understand how you think these maps were maps that negated the fear of running from cover to cover...? Maybe you played Firefight most of the time?

It's up to your level of game sense to know where and how an enemy is playing, if you were unaware you had someone peeking essentially into your spawn that's either on you for not paying attention or your team for not communicating it to you properly. I'm confident in my map knowledge and also if you're up to that paying attention to when a new wave might spawn, im not scared to run freely where i know enemies will not be which enables you to again on example siege again, sprint all the way around the map and end up behind the insurgents spawn only needing to put a bullet in the back of someone who was trying to hold the street. for example. If you're in that part of the map after the initial cross (which the cars make the security cross very easy) you often just have to hold the end of the alley way as you run through

Oh, also insurgency:s doesn't really have an ADS penalty for coming out of sprint. so there isn't really a need to walk around slowly, if you're playing with low weight you ADS faster then most people in the server as it is already. And there is not a whole lot of footstep noise either.

I played all modes, i just join whatever server has players.

@biass said in The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK:

@oldkingcole225 said in The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK:

District and Siege are both maps with choke points, but none of them have areas with a single choke point that you had to take aim duels with. There were great flank options in both maps and you could die way before you reached your allies at the frontlines just because a flank had been lost. I don't understand how you think these maps were maps that negated the fear of running from cover to cover...? Maybe you played Firefight most of the time?

It's up to your level of game sense to know where and how an enemy is playing, if you were unaware you had someone peeking essentially into your spawn that's either on you for not paying attention or your team for not communicating it to you properly. I'm confident in my map knowledge and also if you're up to that paying attention to when a new wave might spawn, im not scared to run freely where i know enemies will not be which enables you to again on example siege again, sprint all the way around the map and end up behind the insurgents spawn only needing to put a bullet in the back of someone who was trying to hold the street. for example. If you're in that part of the map after the initial cross (which the cars make the security cross very easy) you often just have to hold the end of the alley way as you run through

Oh, also insurgency:s doesn't really have an ADS penalty for coming out of sprint. so there isn't really a need to walk around slowly, if you're playing with low weight you ADS faster then most people in the server as it is already. And there is not a whole lot of footstep noise either.

I played all modes, i just join whatever server has players.

And it's people like you that know how to exploit and poke holes in frontlines in order to cause chaos for those like me trying to create some order. Nice to meet you. Now please let's continue this great game we've been playing rather than changing it.

@oldkingcole225 Sorry, i don't consider someone who thinks this game can induce fear as a peer, you let your fear of playing the game as a game influence your opinion on the game's balance.

@oldkingcole225 said in We want the one hit kills.:

INS 2 is a PTSD simulator. It always was

@oldkingcole225 said in We want the one hit kills.:

...maps were maps that negated the fear of running from cover to cover...?

@oldkingcole225 said in The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK:

In Insurgency 2, it was absolutely terrifying to run from cover to cover.

@oldkingcole225 said in The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK:

They're running over hills, across open streets, and straight to OBJ because they don't feel the fear

I should not have to go on.
I believe Sandstorm needs to be changed to allow the game to be played properly without abusing a meta else it will fail as a game. It's more about AP rounds dominating said rather then wanting a higher TTK which a lot of people seem to miss. If you want Sandstorm to be an improvement from source the systems behind the game need to be improved as well as the graphic fidelity, and the balance is always a good start.

The developers should give us a detailed explanation regarding the TTK problem.

last edited by Nick Kim

@biass said in The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK:

@oldkingcole225 Sorry, i don't consider someone who thinks this game can induce fear as a peer, you let your fear of playing the game as a game influence your opinion on the game's balance.

@oldkingcole225 said in We want the one hit kills.:

INS 2 is a PTSD simulator. It always was

@oldkingcole225 said in We want the one hit kills.:

...maps were maps that negated the fear of running from cover to cover...?

@oldkingcole225 said in The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK:

In Insurgency 2, it was absolutely terrifying to run from cover to cover.

@oldkingcole225 said in The problem no one is talking about w/ regards to TTK:

They're running over hills, across open streets, and straight to OBJ because they don't feel the fear

I should not have to go on.
I believe Sandstorm needs to be changed to allow the game to be played properly without abusing a meta else it will fail as a game. It's more about AP rounds dominating said rather then wanting a higher TTK which a lot of people seem to miss. If you want Sandstorm to be an improvement from source the systems behind the game need to be improved as well as the graphic fidelity, and the balance is always a good start.

No I let the experience of the game influence my opinion on the game's experience. The game played well before and the sequel should take note.

@biass
I don't seem to understand your point there. I agree with all that you said. Makes sense, obvious even. But it doesn't negate the point that running in the open is dangerous. Which was all I meant. Of course you can play smart and not run in the open. Point was simply that you die quick when you show yourself wothout caution. If you play well and avoid showing yourself in the open, then of course, you're gonna be safer. Cautious and smart play is rewarding and the opposite is also true. I wasn't debating that. I was merely agreeing that you're not always as safe as you think. The maps are large and filled with shooting spots. People are on the lookout and will kill you quick if they see you, especially because the weapons are appropriately lethal.

Having played enough, you learn to recognize and avoid varying spots depending on map flow, but flanking and surprises are part of the game so you can't always be safe, even if you play smart. But that's obvious and besides the point. And honestly on Panj, there are routes on the sides, that much is true, but the last bit to spawns are still pretty open, leaving you free to kill if a camper is well seated in there. Not arguing against having ways to counter that btw, plenty options to cover your ass. I'm again just agreeing that when you don't know much where to go/where to cover from/what to do, you better hope you're lucky. That said not sure what's going on with the PTSD thing going on lol. Hadn't realized the emphasis they put until you compiled them.

I'm putting a little emphasis on this because you seem to imply that since there's always a way out of trouble, you never ever do. Playing well gets you far, but it wouldn't be a challenge if there weren't any uncertainties at play. Looking at this from a competitive lens, one thing you need to do during a round is to eliminate uncertainties, so that your team can have the upper hand. But again... That much is obvious, I digress.