TTK needs a kick up the @#$*

@benz LOL whatever, heavy armor can actually be one shotted from.308 round, my suggestion actually increased ttk, so I should use the word "lower ttk" instead of "adjustment"?

@ctbear1996 man, if you want unarmored to get killed by 1 shot instead of max. 2... call it adjustment, call it christmas, call it rain, i don't care. It's lowering the TTK. You go from 2 shots to 1. You know. That's -1 bullets. 1 < 2. Not that hard. If you wanna go argue semantics now...holy moly.

@benz said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

semantics

Nobody is arguing about semantics. It is an adjustment, which includes lowering ttk and increasing ttk, just like this thread, so I don't know what is your problem with this, even it is lowering ttk, so what? Btw it is you are arguing about semantics "if you want unarmored to get killed by 1 shot instead of max. 2... call it adjustment, call it christmas, call it rain, i don't care. It's lowering the TTK. You go from 2 shots to 1"
Funny

last edited by ctbear1996

I've already expressed that I'm on the higher ttk (as it is now) team. My reasoning for this, as is my reasoning for everything in sandstorm, is that it should be realistic as much as possible. A one shot TTK is NOT realistic guys. What is realistic is that armor actually works and that shot lethality should be based on where on the body it hits. All of my opinions about this game are based on how things work irl.

@ctbear1996 I posted earlier in this thread about how armor works.

@Benz I agree with you that TTK should not be lowered and that one shot kills of ins2 were kind of weird and dumb, though I disagree with your appraisal of how many shots different armors should take:
Benz's shots:
Unarmored:
5.56: 2 shots
7.52: 1 shot

light armor:
5.56: 2 shots
7.52: 2 shot

heavy armor:
5.56: 3-4 shots
7.52: 2 shot

5.56 rounds are much better at piercing armor than 7.62 rounds. 5.56 rounds irl would go through basically everything that isn't reactive ceramic plating. Here's what I'd say:

Every headshot should obviously be one shot.

Unarmored:
5.56/7.62 to chest, groin, thigh - 1 shot
5.56/7.62 to arms or lower legs - 2 shot

Light armor:
5.56/7.62 - still 1 shot (light armor, such as Type II/Type IIA is for pistol ammo, but this includes some primary weapons such as the UZI) it would do nothing to rifle ammo

Heavy armor:
7.62 - 3-4 shots
5.56 - still 1 shot (as I've explained 5.56 rounds go through most armor... weapons that use this ammo should be very expensive point-wise ... the MP7 also is specifically chambered for special AP rounds which would go through the armor).

All I want is for Sandstorm to be as realistic as possible without becoming the running simulator with a high learning curve that every actual milsim is. When I play games like bf people complain about lack of realism all the time. Taking 3 headshots to kill in cod/bf is just as unrealistic as taking 1 shot to kill a target with heavy armor on a chest shot.

I'd like a game that actually does it for real for once.

@thehappybub why make the game realistic as possible when there are better options in the market compared to sandstorm like squad and Arma? Even project reality is a free download and it's complete as a game.

Sandstorm and insurgency in general should never be too realistic, that just ruin the charm and identity on what made the previous games great and stand out from the rest.

@derpydays I've also said this already in this thread... squad and arma, like all milsims, are running simulators because combat is honestly a small part of military engagements. I don't want to spend hours of gameplay running 3 clicks every 15 minutes.

I don't get why playing an fps means that we need to tweak mechanics to make it arcade-y or make firefights into something they're not.

@thehappybub if you want something more close quarters based and realistic as possible, try to go for games like ground branch or SWAT 4

I have not played those games, ill try em out.

I still think sandstorm in its current state is pretty good and decreasing ttk will ruin it.

last edited by thehappybub

@benz said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

where's your punishment for bad aim then?

In fact that the other person can turn around and kill you in one shot.

@benz said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

Unarmored:

  • 5.56: 2 shots
  • 7.52: 1 shot

light armor:

  • 5.56: 2 shots
  • 7.52: 2 shot

heavy armor:

  • 5.56: 3-4 shots
  • 7.52: 2 shot

You need to learn something called ballistical coefficient. 5.56x45 is better at armor penetration than 7.62x39, 5.56 moves faster and is smaller hence it will penetrate armor easier, 7.62 is fatter, slower and it only ways 30grn more than 5.56 hence it is worse at penetration.

WTF even is heavy armor? somebody said it would be plates at some stage but I hate to tell y'all that plates would be impenetrable for every gun in the game. So assuming it just thicker kevlar or kevlar that is all over the body rather than just chest and back (what insurg2 had) then every rifle should go straight through, the kill drop off would increase when wearing it but that's all.

Benz stop arguing about random shit, please. You just sound like an angry 9yr old trying to say he's got a bigger dick than everybody else's. I'd also argue that the skill ceiling would be higher because in insurgency your entire body is like a head hitbox for other games, meaning if you don't want to die you have to be godly. And you weird camping argument, although is semi true, in old insurg 1 nerd with an RPK could kill a whole row of idiots, it took one person with a brain to kill them easily, if you camp in an exposed position you will die. And WTH are you on about "Vets don't really matter", a vet isn't somebody that brought the game for a dollar and played sniper role 24/7, a vet is a sweaty nerd like myself and Slazenger that poured 500+ into this bitch and enjoyed the crap out of it. Pissing off long time players is not what a small game company wants to do, because it knows us sweaty nerds are its life force and that a low TTK makes the game stand out as something different. If they made this a normal TTK game it would be competing with thousands of other games that would likely do it better than this can.

last edited by Zucchini

@zucchini said "somebody said it would be plates at some stage but I hate to tell y'all that plates would be impenetrable for every gun in the game."

You just repeated what I've posted on this forum twice already, though I'm happy more people are aware of how bullets work.

However 5.56 would absolutely puncture metal plates. Type III and IIIA ballistic plates are made of steel or polythylene, the latter being lighter and therefore more expensive. A 5.56 would cut right through it like butter. Look up pictures of plate tests, they literally leave a perfect circular through and through hole.

The MP7 is chambered for special AP rounds that would rip through those plates too. A shotgun slug would similarly break that plate at closer ranges (depending on the shotgun).

Type IV are usually alumina or ceramic. They would stop most bullets but would shatter after the first impact, making subsequent shots fully lethal.

Regarding 1 shot kills, I've also already talked about this in this thread, citing ridiculous k:d in ins2 and doi, ins2 especially and there wasn't even any fire support. If you played Tell checkpoint with bots an brutal and didn't end the game with over 100 kills there was a problem. That's not making the game hard. Sandstorm in its current state is harder imo.

last edited by thehappybub

@thehappybub yeah ceramic would be fucking useless after a few shots. I've never seen those plates WTH, but yeah 5.56 (green tip?) AP love ripping things to shreds so I'd believe you. I know new AR500 steel plates stop most shit except .50 . Yeah true on the Ins2 bots, that's unless you got an RPG bot those kill everything lol. But bots are bots you could get 100:0 in cs against bots. For PvP it should have a low AF TTK and bots are just used for practice and warm-ups, unless you were somebody that like playing PvE but generally they loved getting 100:0 KD.

I just want armor to be armor as it is irl. How much it costs point wise, now that's a different story. So that everyone doesnt run heavy armor in ranked/versus armor could be worth more than 3 points ... its honestly kind of low (considering a compensator is 4 points lol).

I just don't see a reason to nerf armor, just increase the price. If someone wants to soak up ak rounds to the torso then they should pay dearly for it, but armor should still be armor.

@thehappybub said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

\ So that everyone doesnt run heavy armor in ranked/versus armor could be worth more than 3 points ... its honestly kind of low (considering a compensator is 4 points lol).

I just don't see a reason to nerf armor, just increase the price. If someone wants to soak up ak rounds to the torso then they should pay dearly for it, but armor should still be armor.

Yeah the points system is fucked ATM, and I like these ideas, make heavy armor (that soaks bullets) worth all lot, I don't actually know much you get these days i know in ins2 you got 10creds to begin with, so going by that make it cost 4 or something idk. if you get 20creds now maybe worth 6-8 make it a hearty investment because it will save your bacon many times. Then light be worth 1-2 and it only really dicks with Pistal caliber stuff like smg's and handguns, and increase dmg drop off idk. I still want the fun low TTK but I can understand that if somebody has spent some money on heavy armor that I'm gonna need to smack them around a little more to kill them.

@Zucchini it seems we agree after all. I've been saying all along that if someone is unarmored they should get 1 hit killed, just that armor, specifically for the torso, should work and protect against calibers that make sense.

So yea heavy armor should be worth a lot more and the rifles should be ranked by their caliber, given that 5.56 rifles would breeze through heavy armor, they should be at the top of list. Right now I don't know what they're ranked by ... maybe like handling but I'm not sure.

The answer isn't nerf armor or decrease ttk. An unarmored target's ttk should be 1 shot, maybe like 2 if you hit limbs.

I think the answer is more like balance the points.

Since none of my previous points were challenged, let's try some new ones.

The armour should not be stopping rifle rounds. Let's dig heels in and stop trying to compromise here. Let's advocate for the best solution.

Firstly, the gameplay in Ins2014 and DoI is immaculate. We need the successor to be a successful sequel to that gameplay. Not because it's realistic, not because armour does this or that in real life, but because it is FUN.

Secondly, this argument that the armour should stop bullets because it does in real life holds ZERO weight. In real life, you take a 5.56 through your leg which came from half a kilometre away and you lay on the floor screaming until you bleed out or get morphine / casevac'd. Real war is lethal. You get shot in the wrist, sometimes your hand comes off and your gun remains on the street where you were hit. Again, real war is lethal. You combine the high TTK of video game limb damage with the high TTK of realistic-ish armour and you get a shitty experience which is unpunishing. Shooting 'around' the SAPI plates in a 'realistic' way for low TTK isn't a good experience either, though it'd be better than this. What's a great experience is having the ability to shoot somebody in the chest and they fall over and die. It's consistent, it doesn't feel like RNG, it's punishing, it's lethal.

Give us this. No compromise. You gave it us twice and IT MADE NWI. Clearly there's a market for it.

So if a high level ceramic plate can stop a bullet, could it also stop an armor piercing bullet of the same caliber?

In real life? Sometimes, yes. The manufacturer will state the plate will stop A, B, C, D, and E. Sometimes it'll also stop F, G and H, but it might be a little inconsistent so it's not advertised as such. Gotta factor a lot of other stuff in too, the angle it hits the plate and range being fairly significant.

I mean, while on the topic of safety gear, there's an account on ESS's website (the eyewear manufacturer) of how a pair of their run-of-the-mill specs stopped a 7.62x54 rebound which bounced off the gun atop a vehicle. That situation went from being either a blind or dead gunner to a cool story.

Real warfare is just full of what video games can only replicate as RNG and absolutely shouldn't.

Just make guns lethal and be done with it.

last edited by Whitby

i've been playing with the scar a lot recently, and i've had quite a few situations where an insurgent as taken what seems to be a few to many rounds, the scars got a pretty big round afterall, and i can see im hitting them cause im seeing the blood spray.

@whitby said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

Since none of my previous points were challenged, let's try some new ones.

woooosh

  1. Make premise
  2. Gets challenged on his claims
  3. Doesn't agree.
  4. Pretends challenge didn't happen
  5. Dodges
  6. Profit

Nice way of discussing things. I'll give you a quick reality check on the discussion so far:

  1. You say low TTK = "high lethality, punishing, rewarding"
  2. I counter, saying:
    2.1 a higher TTK wouldn't be less punishing for the attacker
    2.2 a higher TTK would be more punishing for the camper
  3. You bring up this argument for why a higher TTK is less punishing: "people can run around more" and completely dodge my 2nd claim regarding positioning of the camper
  4. I counter by bringing in a different solution for punishing the movement problem you mentioned: tagging
  5. your argument against tagging is: "because it would be just another generic shooter" = that's not a gameplay argument. You offer 0 gameplay reasons for not having more tagging in order to punish people moving in the open
  6. your argument against having recoil management in the game: see 5. Again no real gameplay reason to not have it in, but another "because other shooters already do it"
  7. Since you like punishment: i asked you what you propose to punish bad positioning and aim from campers -> dodged

Summarize:

  1. dodging my "lower TTK = positioning matters less" claim
  2. only argument against tagging and having more important recoil management in the game: "because other shooters do it". No gameplay argument.
  3. dodging my request of how you'd punish bad aim+bad camping positions

"Since none of my previous points were challenged"... good joke. If that's how you discuss things... I'm sorry for you.

Everyone can read the posts to verify it. So don't even try to spin this up.

last edited by Benz

Being as nice as I can, wanting oneshot mechanics back in the game is absurdly stupid and the people acting like its a better solution are also a bit stupid.

Lets compare the AKM to say, an M4 under “every gun kills in one hit”.

Why would I pick a gun with: less range, less firerate, slower bullet velocity and more recoil?

Assuming I was playing to win specifically, theres no reason id ever take a 7.62 rifle ever again when a 5.56 will oneshot , seeing as it has much better everything except wall penetration and even then wall penetration is silly anyway and I would never rely on it.

I mean, the argument is as simple as that, theres no reason to even keep this going. The game just becomes 5.56 rifles and nothing else unless someone doesnt have the points for something else or they arent playing with the idea of using the objectively best gun (playing for fun, like using a boltaction).

Please drop this one-hit-kill shit, its going to drag down the game. We just need better effects for getting shot so a higher ttk isnt as bad for the guy landing shots, while also rewarding other players for taking the higher callibers.