Remove The Long Barrel From Sandstorm Entirely

Colour me surprised! Who would have thought that people would naturally choose the guns that kill in 1 shot over the over the guns that don't?

When all the guns can kill in 1 shot, damage doesn't even become a factor in weapon balance and this increases weapon variety because people will choose a gun that suits their playstyle rather than the highest damaging gun such as the G3 and FAL. I already knew the FAL was being used much more commonly over the other Insurgent Advisor weapons because of this.

@slazenger the point of this thread is that they shouldn't one shot, and op is pointing out a weird mechanism by which a gun is one-shotting and proposing that the attachment be removed.

I mean, I guess the bullet going faster at point blank would mean it does more damage but... Its still so weird. It might even be an oversight on how damage is calculated.

What bothers me is it is a "long barrel", yet it doesn't act as one, and the weapon doesn't gain any overall length whatsoever. Get a long barrel mk18 or aks and boom, you have and m4/ak74 with better maneuverability.

@slazenger an unarmored target... not a heavily armored one in the chest.

Also if you remove long barrel now, the mosin will go back to not oneshotting regularly because when you take long barrel its much more reliable.

@chraso I think press the minus key

Minus key on the NUMPAD.

Imo, the long barrel shouldn't give you a damage boost at closer range. The attachment is basically a soft version of AP rounds, and at 1 supply cost, it's a 'no-brainer' choice on weapons like the G3 so you can get that OSK in CQB. They could make all weapons more lethal, but you shouldn't have to obligatorily use the long barrel attachment to achieve that.

But i really want movement (mostly acceleration related) to be changed before any further damage changes.

We loaded this up and gave it a test. FAL with long barrel (and M14/G3) will 1tap most of the time with a torso shot. Won't 1tap through walls, won't 1tap in limbs, but it's really good fun to use.

What they need to do is calculate out the damage of the FAL + Long Barrel and transfer these stats to the M16/AK74. Then buff the FAL/G3/M14 so they'll 1tap through thin cover / walls regardless. This should be the baseline the other weaponry is balanced around. Using the FAL/G3/M14 actually feels like playing a game made by NWI, it's so much more fun. The long barrel should be removed. Maybe replace it with a heavy barrel, makes much more sense. I mean think about it, a long barrel M4 is... a... M16.

last edited by Whitby

@slazenger said in Remove The Long Barrel From Sandstorm Entirely:

Colour me surprised! Who would have thought that people would naturally choose the guns that kill in 1 shot over the over the guns that don't?

When all the guns can kill in 1 shot, damage doesn't even become a factor in weapon balance and this increases weapon variety because people will choose a gun that suits their playstyle rather than the highest damaging gun such as the G3 and FAL. I already knew the FAL was being used much more commonly over the other Insurgent Advisor weapons because of this.

I get where you're coming from as an Ins2014 vet (pistols were fun due to AP / HP making them extremely viable) but there's then literally no reason to use the G3A3 or FAL. If everything one-shots, guns that have fast firerate and high controllability wins most firefights. Put AP rounds on an MP5k in Ins2014 and then come tell me that shit isn't disgusting.

The whole "every weapon one-hit kills" is a fun meta, but it doesn't mean every weapon is balanced. It means every weapon is viable. You'll probably do better in Ins2014 with an MP5k over a UMP-45, for instance, because that "higher .45 ACP damage" doesn't really exist at all with AP.

Also, a lot of Insurgent Advisors I see also run the SVD, but currently the Ins Advisor is extremely limited in terms of weapon variety. At least, he really doesn't get any exotic weapons. Nothing like a SCAR-H or L85A2.

@ziggylata said in Remove The Long Barrel From Sandstorm Entirely:

I mean, I guess the bullet going faster at point blank would mean it does more damage but... Its still so weird. It might even be an oversight on how damage is calculated.

Yeah, I'm pretty sure it is a developer oversight. I doubt this is supposed to be a mechanic in the game at all, seeing as how hard NWI is avoiding the addition of AP / HP rounds for Sandstorm.

@ziggylata said in Remove The Long Barrel From Sandstorm Entirely:

Also if you remove long barrel now, the mosin will go back to not oneshotting regularly because when you take long barrel its much more reliable.

I think the Mosin one-shots out to a fair distance, but one of my key points was to add the Long Barrel to both bolt-actions by default. They should have more range than any other firearm in the game to begin with.

@chraso said in Remove The Long Barrel From Sandstorm Entirely:

@MarksmanMax how to get that debug menu?

Yeah, it's the Minus key above the plus and right of the * on the NumPad.

@jarple said in Remove The Long Barrel From Sandstorm Entirely:

Imo, the long barrel shouldn't give you a damage boost at closer range. The attachment is basically a soft version of AP rounds, and at 1 supply cost, it's a 'no-brainer' choice on weapons like the G3 so you can get that OSK in CQB. They could make all weapons more lethal, but you shouldn't have to obligatorily use the long barrel attachment to achieve that.

But i really want movement (mostly acceleration related) to be changed before any further damage changes.

Yeah, it's a whole 'nother AP meta for the battle rifles and I don't like it.

Also, I totally forgot about the movement. It's still a tad too fast overall, I'd say. I think players should slow down more when shot (at least, make the slowdown more consistent) and the current lean animations are just downright hilarious.

@whitby said in Remove The Long Barrel From Sandstorm Entirely:

We loaded this up and gave it a test. FAL with long barrel (and M14/G3) will 1tap most of the time with a torso shot. Won't 1tap through walls, won't 1tap in limbs, but it's really good fun to use.

What they need to do is calculate out the damage of the FAL + Long Barrel and transfer these stats to the M16/AK74. Then buff the FAL/G3/M14 so they'll 1tap through thin cover / walls regardless. This should be the baseline the other weaponry is balanced around. Using the FAL/G3/M14 actually feels like playing a game made by NWI, it's so much more fun. The long barrel should be removed. Maybe replace it with a heavy barrel, makes much more sense. I mean think about it, a long barrel M4 is... a... M16.

I still think 5.56 and 7.62 intermediate-cartridge rounds should be noticeably weaker than the .308 and 54R cartridges. The battle and sniper rifles would be kinda useless if 5.56 does the job just as well or better.

last edited by MarksmanMax

@marksmanmax said in Remove The Long Barrel From Sandstorm Entirely:

then literally no reason to use the G3A3 or FAL. If everything one-shots

In Insurgency2014 I used the L1A1 SLR and FAL to shoot through walls/floor/roof on Buhriz occupy to kill the enemies inside because of the bigger penetration There is a definite use for higher caliber weapons in the game for both sustained combat and competitive. There can also be other benefits to the higher caliber weapons.

@slazenger said in Remove The Long Barrel From Sandstorm Entirely:

@marksmanmax said in Remove The Long Barrel From Sandstorm Entirely:

then literally no reason to use the G3A3 or FAL. If everything one-shots

In Insurgency2014 I used the L1A1 SLR and FAL to shoot through walls/floor/roof on Buhriz occupy to kill the enemies inside because of the bigger penetration There is a definite use for higher caliber weapons in the game for both sustained combat and competitive. There can also be other benefits to the higher caliber weapons.

So you get bigger guns only for wallbangs? You realize that 95% of my personal kills, if not more, are direct line-of-sight kills and most guns still have decent pen through most objects. Sure, maybe an FAL has better pen through a wall but if 5.56 AP has 80% of the pen power of an FAL/w AP (the actual pen numbers from Ins2014), is that really worth the increased recoil, reduced mag capacity, and increased supply costs?

@marksmanmax

Your numbers are incorrect because I myself have tested the penetration with with 5.56 and the AKM with AP rounds (ak74 and ak74u cannot penetrate at all).

It takes 10 (ten!) rounds with both weapons to kill an enemy behind a wall with heavy armor. That's 1/3 of your mag for someone you can't even fully see.
With light armor it's 2-4 rounds
With no armor it's a 1 shot kill (to the chest).

Since more people used armor than people who did not use armor it made the 7.62 higher caliber weapons in Insurgency2014 very viable for this kind of playstyle and the medium calibers not viable. (different for 5v5 competitive because the don't use armor)

For Sandstorm, 7.62 does a good job of penetrating walls and from my limited testing 5.56 can kill through walls against an enemy with NO ARMOR but cannot do the same effectively with an enemy who has armor equipped.

So yes, the penetration power of the larger caliber weapons are worth the increased recoil, reduced mag capacity and the increased supply cost.

There is a distinct difference between the weapons and they both have a place in the game.

@slazenger said in Remove The Long Barrel From Sandstorm Entirely:

or Sandstorm, 7.62 does a good job of penetrating walls and from my limited testing 5.56 can kill through walls against an enemy with NO ARMOR but cannot do the same effectively with an enemy who has armor equipped.

Sounds like the calibers work correctly then. Correct me if I'm wrong, but @MarksmanMax is simply saying that heavier caliber weapons (.308, 54R, etc) should be more effective due to well, the way that they are. The only reason for them shouldn't be solely increased penetration.

@thehappybub
He's saying there's no reason to use them if all the rifles medium caliber and above could kill in 1 shot, while I'm saying they do have a place in the game for different playstyles that involve taking down enemies behind walls/cover.

@slazenger said in Remove The Long Barrel From Sandstorm Entirely:

@marksmanmax

Your numbers are incorrect because I myself have tested the penetration with with 5.56 and the AKM with AP rounds (ak74 and ak74u cannot penetrate at all).

It takes 10 (ten!) rounds with both weapons to kill an enemy behind a wall with heavy armor. That's 1/3 of your mag for someone you can't even fully see.
With light armor it's 2-4 rounds
With no armor it's a 1 shot kill (to the chest).

Since more people used armor than people who did not use armor it made the 7.62 higher caliber weapons in Insurgency2014 very viable for this kind of playstyle and the medium calibers not viable. (different for 5v5 competitive because the don't use armor)

For Sandstorm, 7.62 does a good job of penetrating walls and from my limited testing 5.56 can kill through walls against an enemy with NO ARMOR but cannot do the same effectively with an enemy who has armor equipped.

So yes, the penetration power of the larger caliber weapons are worth the increased recoil, reduced mag capacity and the increased supply cost.

There is a distinct difference between the weapons and they both have a place in the game.

My numbers aren't incorrect though. You didn't even test the same calibers I said. Might not sound like a big deal, but oh boi you have no clue.

5.56 in Ins2014 has pretty good pen with AP (1200 for any nerds out there like me) and the FAL has really good pen with AP (1500 exactly). That being said, the AKM isn't as good for wallbangs as the 5.56 rifles (1000 pen) and for some goddamn reason the 5.45x39 AKs are a JOKE at wall pen (500 WITH AP ROUNDS; that's the same pen as an M9 with AP!).

Security side, the high caliber weapons are useless (hated the M14 EBR). For Insurgents though, if you wanted to wallbang people you literally need a FAL to have any success at all (at least the FAL is good though lol).

The Sandstorm "penetration" I don't think is actual "penetration". The "PP" value of calibers in Sandstorm seems to refer more towards just the direct energy of the bullet. The .45 ACP pistols have more pen than the 9mm pistols now, and I know they didn't use to before. I assume it's probably a game balance thing.

Honestly, for wallbang's sake though I still argue that blindfire killing an enemy through a wall isn't worth getting a battle rifle which costs more supply than an AR that has roughly the same performance (unless it's a G3A3, that shouldn't be two supply, I'm sorry).

...I feel like I've gotten into a forum discussion where I had to also mention Ins2014 penetration power numbers lmao. They're crazy unrealistic.

last edited by MarksmanMax