The Great TTK Debate

Also about Benz's view on coop players, I play coop mainly but I don't want one shot any enemies regardless of armor, it's not the case for tactical gameplay, in arma 3, enemies with heavy armor that has higher survivability is a lot more challenging than one shot them with pistol before they can react.
Btw to op, I offered lots of suggestion to make unarmored target one shot kill on the chest and makes heavy armor more durable to rounds like buckshot and pistol calibers.

last edited by ctbear1996

@planetcanada i simply pointed out that by your own statement you are a bad player. Why do you want a lower TTK if i may ask? So you can have a higher K/D compared to now?

@planetcanada said in The Great TTK Debate:

I was shooting people full of AK74 bullets left right

I basically main the AK74 and I've honestly never had a problem. It's a double tap on semi, I flip it on auto for room clearing. I also never run out of ammo. I'm usually top of the leaderboard, maybe second or third sometimes if some real studs come on. My overall KD is 10.26 which I'm not even that proud of. I don't know what you're doing man.

I run it with a suppressor and foregrip, extended mags, not drum (the extended mag reload is really fast). I rock the OKP.

@benz said in The Great TTK Debate:

b) coop players

I play coop mainly! I'm so offended @Benz! How dare you! Mah heart, mah soul!

last edited by thehappybub

@benz said in The Great TTK Debate:

b) coop players

I play coop mainly! I'm so offended @Benz! How dare you! Mah heart, mah soul!

He has a point...

@thehappybub Is coop and versus k/d ratio combined because I haven’t touched coop at all only versus so your 10 what ever isn’t relevant as mine is versus only and I said I think I would have to check as I am not at home so I’m not really even sure what mine is I took a guess and probably low balled it regardless sometimes I do die more than kill but have the most objective points and my team wins it happens often and I run the advisor class which there is no extended mag for the ak74? Let alone drum mags?? So I’m not sure what your getting at here man and that goes for that Benz guy too happy for you guys if you have high k/d ratios but I could not care less doesn’t mean your good at the game like I said before I’m usually pretty high up on the leaderboard IN VERSUS often top of the server so I guess everyone but you two suck ass at the game?

@planetcanada I'm not saying I'm good at the game, I'm just saying that what you describe about the AK74 is just so wack that I can't believe it, and that it's not a good example of why TTK should be reduced... given how wack it is.

Also I'm pretty sure the K:D is combined so I guess it's not a good reflection, no clue what it is for just versus, but it sure ain't 1.

last edited by thehappybub

@benz No it had nothing to do with k/d ratio I don’t concern myself with that I want to win and play as a team and I want less TTK because that’s how source was and that’s what I thought I was getting it’s more fun to me my opinion. And I want it lowered because even if these plates that don’t cover much of your chest can take bullets the impact messes you up so it shouldn’t take many bullets to at least make a person unable to shoot back.

@planetcanada said in The Great TTK Debate:

that’s how source was

Then why don't you go play ins2?

@planetcanada said in The Great TTK Debate:

even if these plates that don’t cover much of your chest can take bullets the impact messes you up

I agree that there should be more of a flinch mechanic.

last edited by thehappybub

@planetcanada not exactly sure how a lower TTK favours teamplay. That's what low-ttk people even argue with: "so i can flank 1000 people and kill them fast! I can't do that with higher TTK!"

A higher TTK highly favours teamplay. See Quake 3 CTF. Try going 1v2... won't happen.

I would love too see some gameplay videos so we can analyze how much of peoples troubles are truly about TTK, hit reg or just bad aim / positioning etc.

@benz Maybe don't extrapolate this one example into an ad hominem against anyone who would argue for a return of Ins2's TTK? There are legitimate reasons to want a lower TTK, but none of them are covered by OP.

@cyoce said in The Great TTK Debate:

@benz Maybe don't extrapolate this one example into an ad hominem against anyone who would argue for a return of Ins2's TTK? There are legitimate reasons to want a lower TTK, but none of them are covered by OP.

and i have heard none so far besides "because i like it" and "because it was in ins2".

@benz said in The Great TTK Debate:

and i have heard none so far besides "because i like it" and "because it was in ins2".

Confirmation bias is wonderful, isn't it?

@cyoce said in The Great TTK Debate:

@benz said in The Great TTK Debate:

and i have heard none so far besides "because i like it" and "because it was in ins2".

Confirmation bias is wonderful, isn't it?

feel free to give me an argument with:

  1. a thesis
  2. the argument
  3. an example

If i can't counter it i'll add the argument to my list.

@benz A lower TTK, while arguably lowering the skill floor (as in your comments about how it's "easier to hit 1 shot than 3 shots"), also raises the skill ceiling by allowing one player to take on multiple less competent enemies.

Example: You pull off a great flank and end up behind 5 enemy players. With low TTK, 5-10 shots will be enough to kill them all, rewarding you for working for a positional advantage and being able to quickly spray transfer between 5 targets. With a high TTK, you might get one or two before they turn around and kill you, winning the engagement by virtue of their large combined health pool instead of their skills.

Example 2: You are the last man alive on your team, trying to defend/cap a point against 5 enemies. With low TTK, if your aim, reflexes, and tactics are superior, you can kill each one of them before they get a shot off. With higher TTK, it will be very unlikely to kill them before any of them fire a shot, resulting in the clutch player getting chipped down by taking a hit on every (or every other depending on how high it is) 1v1.

last edited by cyoce

@cyoce said in The Great TTK Debate:

@benz A lower TTK, while arguably lowering the skill floor (as in your comments about how it's "easier to hit 1 shot than 3 shots"), also raises the skill ceiling by allowing one player to take on multiple less competent enemies.

Example: You pull off a great flank and end up behind 5 enemy players. With low TTK, 5-10 shots will be enough to kill them all, rewarding you for working for a positional advantage and being able to quickly spray transfer between 5 targets. With a high TTK, you might get one or two before they turn around and kill you, winning the engagement by virtue of their large combined health pool instead of their skills.

  1. You obv. don't know what "low skill ceiling" and "high skill ceiling" even means. Let me explain:

In your glorious example it's literally easier to kill people, because of a lower TTK. If you make a situation easier to handle, then you are lowering the skill ceiling. A high skill ceiling offers players room to improve, it creates space for mistakes. F.e. in your example:

Player A and B can be in equal skill in regards to positioning (here: flanking). Player A has worse aim and he can't take down 5 enemies. Player B has better aim and he can take them down. If in your example the TTK is lower to the point where Player B could also handle the situation, you equalize their skill by lowering the skill ceiling.

Stuff i recommend you to read on the topic in order to be able to have a proper conversation and not get terminology wrong: https://esportsedition.com/general/skill-ceiling-skill-floor-esports-terminology/

"The fewer complex mechanics a game has, the lower its inherent skill ceiling."

You 1. Example: CS:GO has a higher TTK and you can kill multiple people just fine, if you have the skill for it. Also: even in Sandstorm right now you can do that just fine. Your example simply comes down to the need for better aim.

Your 2. Example: extreme example...with an aimbot you'd headshot them all. So it once again comes down to aim. With a lower TTK this 1on5 situation would be only be easier, if your enemies are way worse. Otherwise a lucky body hit and you are dead.
Once again lowering the skill ceiling. Although i'd argue that it only lower it for the attackers, and actually makes it harder for the single defender, because you get rekt by a lucky hit and can't recover from it. In a realistic scenario where you actually play in your own skill bracket via matchmaking.... you are fucked 1on5. Simple as that.

This simply has to be balanced.
In a game with an extremely high TTK like f.e. Quake you can't even take on 3 people. In CS it's hard, but totally doable.

Also: with a higher TTK... if you have better aim (and are better in general) than your 5 enemies, it's actually easier to handle, the better your aim is. You can 1 shot them all with a headshot AND you can tank more dmg without getting killed by a lucky body hit, actually giving you time to deal the damage. This would also encourage teamplay from the 5 players, as taking you on 1by1 would be WAY more risky than taking you 2on1. Prove: CSGO. That's exactly how CS:GO works. You don't see many high skilled players rambo much for a good reason. I thought that's what people in this community want? More teamplay? Or not? Personally i certainly would like more teamplay.

( try taking a 2on1 in Quake 3 CTF. Hint: you gonna be in a bad situation...)

rewarding you for working for a positional advantage

You know what the reward for putting yourself into a positional advantage is? Positional advantage. Low TTK, high TTK. Everyone plays the same game and the guy with a positional advantage will always be better off, no matter what. There's no situation on earth where 2 equally skilled players face each other and the guy with the worse position wins. What kinda logic is that even.

winning the engagement by virtue of their large combined health pool instead of their skills.

... or you could say: by teamplay. But hey: if you flank 5 people in a 5on5 and kill 2-3 of them, you literally did your job. lol. it's a freaking 2(3)-for-1 trade. Like...good job? What else?! 😂

Even funnier: uhm...what about some actual teamplay? If you wouldn't fight 5 people alone, but like...with a team-mate. You would have killed them?! I thought people want to encourage teamplay?! This low-ttk "so i can flank 5 people all kill them all with no effort" is retarded and encourages solo play over teamplay.

last edited by Benz

I... am... speechless...

This thread just became worth its title. Great stuff, thank you both @Benz and @cyoce !

@Benz you've got some solid arguments there!

alt text

I'm interested to see how they are countered.

@benz Spare me the condescension. It's completely unnecessary and counter-productive. That said,

You continually gloss over the point that a lower TTK makes things "easier" by enabling good plays. Even with one shot kills, you still need substantial aim to quickly shoot five targets once before any of them return fire. With a higher TTK, it is inevitable that a superior player will take stray bullets. I am talking about body shot TTK for reasons described below.

You seem to keep coming back to this point about headshots. I would love for headshots to be a viable solution to the current TTK issues, but a few other factors in the game's mechanics prevent headshots from being a reliable option right now.

The two problems are RNG recoil and sway. Right now, sway is introduced by

  1. Standing introduces significant sway, which can be mitigated after a (sometimes lethal) delay by holding breath
  2. Suppression. In an open gunfight, suppression's heavy RNG sway is just a side effect of your opponent missing. If suppression were reverted to its state in Ins2, that would go a long way
  3. Sprinting. With maps this large, it's essential to sprint for long amounts of time (sometimes upwards of 30 seconds). After sprinting, your gun becomes too imprecise to even land a body shot at medium-long range.

RNG recoil wouldn't play into the skill ceiling of the game too much if sway were removed, because landing the first shot headshot would be consistent for skilled players.

As it stands, however, the TTK should not be balanced around an unreliable mechanic. I would be just as happy with the removal RNG in order to make headshots viable as with one/two body shot kills.

last edited by cyoce

@cyoce said in The Great TTK Debate:

@benz Spare me the condescension. It's completely unnecessary and counter-productive.

Misusing terminology is counter productive. Me educating you on the topic is productive. I don't care what you think about me, I'm not here to make friends (lol). As long as you never misuse the term again with your newly gained knowledge, i literally couldn't care less what you think about me.

You continually gloss over the point that a lower TTK makes things "easier" by enabling good plays. Even with one shot kills, you still need substantial aim to quickly shoot five targets once before any of them return fire. With a higher TTK, it is inevitable that a superior player will take stray bullets. I am talking about body shot TTK for reasons described below.

I'm confused. So what? Stray bullets won't kill you in a high TTK game. That's the whole point. You can tank more dmg in order to deal more dmg. In a low TTK game it boils down to how fast the enemies can react to you and that's it. Few lucky bullets and you are down. That said: you don't counter any of my arguments here.

You seem to keep coming back to this point about headshots. I would love for headshots to be a viable solution to the current TTK issues, but a few other factors in the game's mechanics prevent headshots from being a reliable option right now.

I play Sandstorm every day and I don't find headshots to be unreliable at all. The opposite. The guns in this game are literally a laser, even at longer ranges, and spraying is way easier compared to f.e. CSGO. Headshots are reliable as shit right now. The sad part is: I barely go for headshots, simply because body hits kill fast enough anyway and it's not like I need to conserve ammo. Even 3 mags are enough for the usual firefight round.

The two problems are RNG recoil and sway. Right now, sway is introduced by

  1. Standing introduces significant sway, which can be mitigated after a (sometimes lethal) delay by holding breath

Isn't that what people want? Thinking about taking the proper fights? I don't have a problem with that. Crouching makes your weapons a laser anyways.

  1. Suppression. In an open gunfight, suppression's heavy RNG sway is just a side effect of your opponent missing. If suppression were reverted to its state in Ins2, that would go a long way

I fully agree. Suppression is cancer and has to go. It literally rewards bad aimers. It's retarded.

  1. Sprinting. With maps this large, it's essential to sprint for long amounts of time (sometimes upwards of 30 seconds). After sprinting, your gun becomes too imprecise to even land a body shot at medium-long range.

I agree as well here. The game has issues way beyong TTK.

RNG recoil wouldn't play into the skill ceiling of the game too much if sway were removed, because landing the first shot headshot would be consistent for skilled players.

I agree.

As it stands, however, the TTK should not be balanced around an unreliable mechanic. I would be just as happy with the removal RNG in order to make headshots viable as with one/two body shot kills.

100% yes on the sway, but 100% no on the body shot TTK. I've explained why in my large post.

No offense here and i think you make good points in your post, but you don't counter any of the arguments i made in my gigantic post above. So i assume you can't counter them (no offense) and we agree on them, despite you prefering lower TTK for personal reasons. If you'd prefer it for gameplay reasons you'd be able to back up your initial arguments and actually counter my counter-arguments.