Does anyone else think that time to kill is a little high compared to original Insurgency?

Uhhh not again....

The old insurgency was only ohk bc of ap ammo. Without ap ammo the guns were terribly unbalanced (I wouldnt call an ap ammo meta balanced either).

Ins2 ap ammo gameplay was highly twitch-based and involved people running and jumping around too much. It was not only unrealistic but highly arcade-like for my tastes.

I prefer the current ttk on heavy armor and believe it offers more believeable gameplay and pace, though I agree that unarmored targets should be one shots to the head/torso.

@pacalis said in Does anyone else think that time to kill is a little high compared to original Insurgency?:

When you explain the amounts of shots it takes to kill an opponent I do get confused as it is not clear to me why such a low amount of shots to kill means anything else than a reasonably low ttk?

Going to cherrypick some examples to illustrate where I stand on this point. M16, M14, AKM. I believe all weapons of the calibre described should do the same damage, although I believe barrel length should stretch the distance at which it takes an extra bullet to drop somebody. So, you can extrapolate from this my position.

Ins2014: (Assume everything's loaded with AP.)
M16 was the go-to weapon for a lot of people. Two rounds in the torso with AP even at long range would drop somebody with heavy armour. Typically one round in the upper torso would end most targets - it'd be rare for this not to be the case. Shots to the legs and arms would hurt but not be a kill.
M14 was somewhat underutilised due to the higher point cost, but came with tradeoffs. Shots to the thighs were a kill, but the gun had more recoil. So you had a larger target to shoot for, but followup shots were harder to place.
AKM was the go-to weapon for the insurgent side. You had less firerate than an M16 but typically a hit was a kill nontheless. In exchange for losing a little firerate, you gained a little penetration meaning punching through walls was more viable and you gained automatic fire capability.

All the guns were usable. The battle rifle calibres were fearsome, getting winged was a death sentence. The intermediary calibres (5.56/5.45/7.62) performed similarly and represented their real-life counterparts very well.
Body armour was useful vs shrapnel. Admittedly, body armour was underpowered or overpriced.
Suppression was much more effective. Gunfights were scary.

Sandstorm:
M16 takes 2-3 shots to kill.
M14 onetaps torso but not legs.
AKM takes 2-3 shots to kill.

End result is the M14 (and also the FAL) are just outrightly better weapons. At range you can shoot for a full body target and win. Up close you win before the M16 has finished firing off the burst.
When faced with 6 targets in Ins2014 you could kill 6 targets in 12 shots consistently with an M16. (Accounting for a couple of misses.) When faced with 6 targets in SS, you're looking at using an entire magazine. Your agency has been dramatically reduced simply because everybody has become more absorbant. As a result, especially in coop, you sometimes get in situations where volume of bodies throwing themselves at you simply overwhelms your gun's ability to cut them down. They're physically able to enter the room at a rate above which your gun can put them down unless you're getting a headshot every bullet while using a gun in fully automatic.
Choice of cover is not so much a thing. Rounds which do little damage punch through cover and do even less. Wallbangs are not what they once were. Lethality is gone.

If the TTK gets any higher, the meta simply becomes to pause, aim for the head, then fire. (As this takes less time than firing 3-4 rounds into a body.) This is the meta of many other games and for those of us who've played something much better (Ins2014/DoI) it's disappointing.

Bullets should be scary. Guns are supposed to hurt people. Low TTK is good for gameplay.

What I propose isn't exactly the Ins2014 system. AP was OP, etc etc. I get it. How about this:

7.62x51 + 7.62x54
One hit kill to torso and upper legs at medium / close range.
One hit kill to torso at long range.
Punches through cover exceptionally.

7.62x39
One hit kill to torso at medium / close range.
One hit kill to upper torso at long range.
Punches through cover fairly well.

5.56 + 5.45
One hit kill to torso at medium / close range.
One hit kill to upper torso at long range.
Punches through cover better than pistol rounds but not brilliantly.

Give body armour SAPI sized hitboxes. Each plate absorbs 1 bullet of anything smaller than a battle rifle then "breaks". Light armour being a front and back SAPI, heavy including side plates and a femoral plate.

Boom, sorted. 1-2 hit kills, every calibre has its own niche keeping weapons relevant and gunfights appropriately scary.

@whitby said in Does anyone else think that time to kill is a little high compared to original Insurgency?:

What I propose isn't exactly the Ins2014 system. AP was OP, etc etc. I get it. How about this:
7.62x51 + 7.62x54
One hit kill to torso and upper legs at medium / close range.
One hit kill to torso at long range.
Punches through cover exceptionally.
7.62x39
One hit kill to torso at medium / close range.
One hit kill to upper torso at long range.
Punches through cover fairly well.
5.56 + 5.45
One hit kill to torso at medium / close range.
One hit kill to upper torso at long range.
Punches through cover better than pistol rounds but not brilliantly.
Give body armour SAPI sized hitboxes. Each plate absorbs 1 bullet of anything smaller than a battle rifle then "breaks". Light armour being a front and back SAPI, heavy including side plates and a femoral plate.

Exactly. I said something very similar on one of those ttk threads back in the day when I was defending heavy armor. This is it.

last edited by thehappybub

@rudged Funny how I keep hearing this “AP meta” and I will admit I never left home without it! That being said I never left home without heavy armour as well just as I equip it EVERY SINGLE TIME in sandstorm as well. Then on top of that I see more people than not using heavy armour now I’m starting to see people use light or none now but most people still use heavy making it the new meta??? But I for one always use heavy armour every time and it definitely makes a difference because (not always) but more often then not I will be running along and take a few bullets and just run away and every time I think to my self how in the hell am I still alive let alone running and fighting..

@thehappybub said in Does anyone else think that time to kill is a little high compared to original Insurgency?:

Exactly. I said something very similar on one of those ttk threads back in the day when I was defending heavy armor. This is it.

In all fairness, that idea I stole from someone else on here. IRL SAPI's will stop a whole spraydown of bullets which will be really frustrating in a video game, but hybridise reality with gameplay and let each plate stop ONE round with higher TTK? There's your solution.

@whitby I think you need to watch a few videos on what bullets do to armour and what’s underneath that armour... Just sayin!

@planetcanada

We talking about the bruising and internal bleeding here?

I'm an advocate of realism being the inspiration, nothing more than that. 😛

@grumf that's a reason to remove the option to pay extra for more damage, not to change the standard damage model

@Whitby
I agree in coop that just a slightly higher ttk may make it tougher to defend a point against waves, I also believe using the mg or mods could help out to handle the higher number of enemies at once that you are faced with in coop, though I would not use mods as an argument on its own, as the game should function well without it. Though on objectives with two floors, it would normally be enough to rush other floor between loading new mag and just spray with a few extra bullets. In one room defenses, I liked having a smoke or two just in case I got overwhelmed, as this gives an advantage in coop over bots still. If more ppl are alive on the team it would of course be good to spread out a bit to have a possibility of retreating or take turns in reloading. Playing coop and knowing you can run into those hard to defend places, there is always possible to cheese through the hard part with a molotov, smoke or well placed frag=)

In pvp, I also liked the lower combined health pool of your opponents because it allowed some interesting aggressive strategies that is difficult to perform when the timeframe goes up even slightly (taking out multiple targets in quick succession before enemy realize what is happening), and the game has been having a slight change of tactic to perform successfully in this new environment - I also liked the m16 in coop because of the large mag, accuracy and one shooting bots, though I guess I need mods in coop anyway to get some variation and added difficulty after a while, and my main point was that it is still fast to kill enemies in pvp - Though I am not in the habit of trying to hit foes with just the right amount of bullets. When using single shot I always do some quick tapping, and on auto I fire until enemy does not move (in bursts depending on distance). I do not worry too much about my mags in pvp, being alive after any encounter has a much higher priority, so my enemies normally receive a fair amount of lead unless they are unaware and easy to head-tap. I can always resupply or pick up enemy gun after a fight. So if they die with 1 or 3 bullets it is not a big problem as they often receive 3 bullets before my brain even try to register if they are still alive (with above exception on the interesting strategies part).

last edited by Pacalis

@planetcanada

That sounds good, then heavy armour serves its function=) It is cool that you always use heavy armour while I never use any armour, it shows that the game is possible and viable to play with very different loadouts as intended.

@pacalis

M249/PKM holding objectives are god tier for this reason - they actually posess enough firepower to take down a wave. All guns should be capable of this.

@Whitby
While in pvp they are not so popular due to high weight, all guns perform with similar effectiveness in coop would make for a great mod=)

Seeing people argue whether one or two bullets should kill someone is so funny.

Want a one-shot kill? Go for the head.

Want a one-two shot kill? Go for a sniper.

Want a one-three shot kill? Get any other gun.

What else are we talking about here? Hit registration? Lag? Everybodys aim? If you don't want to die before the other guy kills you then a.) be better or b.) flank or c.) use explosives, flashbangs, smokes and support at your disposal.

The "ttk" get's any lower we all might as well just run with pistols and then hop on the "the ttk is way too low, 90% of the mechanics are irrelevant" discussion thread.

@pakislav

Already near-exclusively using the FAL as nearly everything else is worthless. Thanks for your insight into the subject, though.

@whitby
But now you are referring to coop right? This is an important distinction, as @Pakislav is pretty right on point when it comes to pvp both from my own experience and what all the videos on youtube shows.

EDIT: I used mostly G3A3 and M4A1, both guns got the job done on multiple enemies just fine in pvp.

last edited by Pacalis

@pacalis

If we are exclusively discussing multiple enemies in PvP, we're discussing 2-3 people max. There's easily enough killing power in any primary weapon to achieve that without reloading. Multiple enemies in coop, you can reasonably be dealing with 15+ at once pouring through a doorway.

@pacalis See but that’s not my point I always use heavy armour because I feel I’m at a huge disadvantage if I don’t equip it especially now in sandstorm in Source it wasn’t such a big deal but now it really is. In Source from time to time I wouldn’t run heavy so I could use attachments and explosives but it wasn’t a huge deal because even without it you died fast. Now in sandstorm I will never not run heavy because you truly are at a disadvantage in a lot of situations and I prefer iron sights anyways. It’s funny one of my very first posts in the sandstorm forums was asking when they would be adding AP rounds so I was quite upset to find out they wouldn’t be but... Can’t win them all!

Oh look. My prediction about how this thread will degrade into a shouting match came true. Shocker!

I've given up trying but, its too slow to have the name "insurgency". You're gonna argue, I don't care anymore, have fun with your new game.

Shouting match? I haven't seen any caps lock nor have my feelings been hurt. Seems like a discussion to me.

Somewhat agreed about the Insurgency name thing, it's so far from its predecessor without lethality.