Start a CCL season every 3 weeks.

At the moment, the cyclicity of the CCL season makes it hard to find matches in the late part of the season. New teams don't start anymore, as they can't get enough matches to qualify, so you don't get to meet new teams as much and the ones that already have enough games either sit on their record because it is too bad or too good and the few remaining might not fit your tv range.

Anyway, whatever the mix of reasons, later in the season, sometimes you spin and spin without any matchup and then go away and do something else.

So, my suggestion to maybe solve this problem is:

Start a new CCL season (of 6 weeks like now) every 3 weeks. So, you would have two overlapping seasons that run side by side. That way, there's always one season going where it still makes sense to start a new team and you can use the new season as a fallback when you don't find an opponent in the old season.

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

Run two side-by-side and people will abandon the first for the second pretty rapidly - it wouldn't be a fallback, it'd be a primary location to play. You'd split the playerbase and make it harder to find a match in both leagues. A better (but still bad) option would be to simply start again every 3 weeks. It's bad because 3 weeks simply isn't long enough for people to have a chance of playing.

Better solutions would involve things like letting you know how many other people are looking for a match, or scheduled 5-minute pools rather than the current "start with the first person" pools.

@dode74 said in Start a CCL season every 3 weeks.:

Better solutions would involve things like letting you know how many other people are looking for a match, or scheduled 5-minute pools rather than the current "start with the first person" pools.

I'd be super happy if they could just display the time spent in queue somewhere. The pop-up window you get when you start looking for a game disappears way too quickly, they could just sticky it. If you'd also add how many other players are in the pool spinning the same time and a little audio/visual notification (window blink) when match is found ... now that would be great quality of life improvement... mind blown 🙂

@dode74 said in Start a CCL season every 3 weeks.:

Run two side-by-side and people will abandon the first for the second pretty rapidly - it wouldn't be a fallback, it'd be a primary location to play. You'd split the playerbase and make it harder to find a match in both leagues.

Why? If they want to qualify, they will continue to play in the one they started in (which, of course, was started closest to the point they were starting) as long as they find matches. If they have no chance of qualifying anymore in the old one, they'll go to the new one. At the moment, they just don't go anywhere at all (or somewhere else) in the second half of the season, so that supposed player-base split is already reality. Don't see it getting worse because of that, I actually see it getting better as those who want to compete with at least a glimmer of hope of qualifying always have a place to go to.

Realistically, players who have a team in the old one, once that calms down, will just spin in parallel in the old and the new one, increasing their chances of finding a match in either. That's also not a split of the playerbase. Also, the people that 'sit on their good record' will go to the new season instead of not playing (or just not playing competitively) during the waning weeks.

A better (but still bad) option would be to simply start again every 3 weeks. It's bad because 3 weeks simply isn't long enough for people to have a chance of playing.

Better solutions would involve things like letting you know how many other people are looking for a match, or scheduled 5-minute pools rather than the current "start with the first person" pools.

yes, I know, and I already suggested something like this, but I don't know how that will solve the issue that it just doesn't make sense to start a new team anymore once the season has progressed too far.

last edited by ugh
BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

Your assumption appears to be that people only play in order to qualify. That's not true: there are lots of reasons to play in a moderated environment with limited concessions other than simply to qualify for the playoffs. That's why we still see plenty of people playing. Sure, you have a drop-off towards the end of the season, but that is always the case with large open leagues with seasons. You still get more than just those wanting to qualify playing.

What you'd do with a separate league is make it so some people are spinning in one league and others in another. That is, by any definition you care to use, a split.

@dode74 said in Start a CCL season every 3 weeks.:

Your assumption appears to be that people only play in order to qualify.

No, I don't. But, those that do, don't have a reason to go there anymore. I want to address those. And yes, I assume, they are not a small minority either. I don't have any other explanation why games are hard to find later on in the season. Do you?
If the people that normally stay away still spin somewhere, the other people who only play non-competitively will also have more players to be matched against, so it's a win-win for both.

That's not true: there are lots of reasons to play in a moderated environment with limited concessions other than simply to qualify for the playoffs. That's why we still see plenty of people playing. Sure, you have a drop-off towards the end of the season, but that is always the case with large open leagues with seasons. You still get more than just those wanting to qualify playing.

That would also be true after the change I am proposing.

What you'd do with a separate league is make it so some people are spinning in one league and others in another. That is, by any definition you care to use, a split.

No, that's a wrong assumption, in my view. People will spin in both leagues/seasons if they just want to play casually in a moderated environment with few concessions, of course. Why would they only spin in one? Where's the gain? Only spinning both will give the best results. So, no player split and more players who are spinning (those who would otherwise not spin). That means more matches in my book.

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

People will spin in both leagues/seasons if they just want to play casually in a moderated environment with few concessions, of course. Why would they only spin in one

Regardless of how many they spin in they can only play in one. It is a split however you look at it.

@dode74 said in Start a CCL season every 3 weeks.:

Regardless of how many they spin in they can only play in one. It is a split however you look at it.

No, it's not. The only split will be in the results, i.e. the number of matches played in either CCL will be smaller than now. But, otherwise it's no different than when the same people spin only in one CCL, you will get the same amount of matches. If more people will do it (as is the goal), you will get a larger amount of matches.

Basically, you might see it as a hybrid of two things: the CCL environment (both leagues taken together) and each of the CCL seasons separately. The environment in total should have more games, i.e. each player playing there will get more games on average than with only one season. Each CCL season might get less games than now, but I don't see how this is a bad thing, if the main goal is to provide the moderated environment.

At the moment we have an actual split, as people who don't find a match in CCL will start spinning in COL or similar in parallel until the start of the next season. My proposal is aimed to change that so they remain in the CCL environment instead.

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

Your assumptions are just that: assumptions. Currently the drop in CCL games does not correlate with any increase in COL games. It doesn't matter which "environment" they play in but the number of matches in each season: more matches are beneficial in order to make the results more meaningful/less subject to randomness.
Further, any such change would result in an increase in administration duties and complexity: currently we are running up to one season and one cup at any one time. This would require an increase to 2 seasons and two cups, and the invariable response to just about every report/issue/problem will be "which season was that?" Added to that, it would double the prize frequency, resulting in either a reduction in magnitude of each or an increase in overall prize money.

It's not going to happen for all the reasons I've already stated but which you are choosing to reject. You're free to reject them, but it's me and the other admins who have to implement this. The decision ultimately rests with Focus and my own opinion is stated.

@dode74 said in Start a CCL season every 3 weeks.:

Your assumptions are just that: assumptions. Currently the drop in CCL games does not correlate with any increase in COL games.

They are not 'assumptions' but 'observations' of my own behavior. If I have limited time to play a game and am not matched fast enough (i.e. in the first two match-cycles), I will start spinning COL "or similar" (as stated) or just do something else instead, e.g. not play BB.

It doesn't matter which "environment" they play in but the number of matches in each season: more matches are beneficial in order to make the results more meaningful/less subject to randomness.

Is there some statistics that show what kind of matches are happening (after which amount of waiting time) mostly during the waning weeks of the season?

Further, any such change would result in an increase in administration duties and complexity: currently we are running up to one season and one cup at any one time. This would require an increase to 2 seasons and two cups, and the invariable response to just about every report/issue/problem will be "which season was that?" Added to that, it would double the prize frequency, resulting in either a reduction in magnitude of each or an increase in overall prize money.

It's not going to happen for all the reasons I've already stated but which you are choosing to reject.

I'm not 'choosing' to reject them willy-nilly, I reject them as they are also just assumptions on your part based on reasoning that is flawed, which I have tried to show.

You're free to reject them, but it's me and the other admins who have to implement this. The decision ultimately rests with Focus and my own opinion is stated.

I can understand the additional workload/cost argument, of course.

I'm just trying to find a constructive solution to a definite problem, which, in my opinion, should be solvable SOMEHOW, in the interest of everyone playing CCL.

An alternative to what I have proposed would be that somehow teams that join the season late (let's say the last two weeks) and have not qualified could be allowed to be carried over into the next season if they have not played more than X games until then).

This would mean that at any point in time, it still makes sense to play CCL, even if you're doing it only for competitive reasons. That means more teams spinning, which should mean more matches to be played for everyone who's trying to find a match, also those only playing casually.

I know, it would be a implementation issue, mostly on Focus side (but that's what this page is for, right?) which couldn't be solved with the current implementation (as the original one). I don't see any additional administration workload/cost approach (after the implementation effort, of course) with that approach.

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

Observations of your own behaviour do not necessarily generalise to the entire population.

Data is available on Goblinspy, as always.

You've not showed my reasoning is flawed, merely assumed yours is correct. My own reasoning is based on experience of running such leagues for over 5 years.

It makes sense to play in CCL at any time if you are playing for any other reason other than merely to qualify. Matches tend to finish, I am told opponent quality is higher, there is greater team diversity, and the environment is moderated. If your intention is merely to qualify then I suggest you catch the boat on time rather than lamenting about it being too infrequent for you.

@ugh said in Start a CCL season every 3 weeks.:

Is there some statistics that show what kind of matches are happening (after which amount of waiting time) mostly during the waning weeks of the season?

Have you seen this:
https://forums.focus-home.com/topic/344/goblinspy-league-stats-without-upload-needed
If you know how to do data analysis, you can investigate everything you want on your own. Unfortunately the time of spinning is not provided there, but you can get the information about the time/date of the matches. Regarding the topic: I never had problems finding a game in CCL, maybe I was just lucky or maybe you were just unlucky.

@ugh said in Start a CCL season every 3 weeks.:

I don't see any additional administration workload/cost approach (after the implementation effort, of course) with that approach.

Out of curiosity: Do you know what kind of work the admins are doing right now? I don't know what they have to do right now (after the release of the new tools with LE), but I know what they did half a year ago and that was rather surprising.

last edited by Arne
BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

@arne said in Start a CCL season every 3 weeks.:

Do you know what kind of work the admins are doing right now? I don't know what they have to do right now (after the release of the new tools with LE), but I know what they did half a year ago and that was rather surprising.

It's the same. We're working on improving it but I have a lot to learn to be able to do it myself.

@dode74 said in Start a CCL season every 3 weeks.:

Observations of your own behaviour do not necessarily generalise to the entire population.

No one has suggested as much. But, as I consider my behavior pretty straightforward, I would generalise it to at least part (and I assume not an insignificant part, either) of the population. You can tell me why someone who doesn't find a match and does not have an infinite amount of time on their hand would choose a different behavior. That's going to be interesting.

Data is available on Goblinspy, as always.

You've not showed my reasoning is flawed, merely assumed yours is correct. My own reasoning is based on experience of running such leagues for over 5 years.

Your reasoning is making assumptions about a setup that you don't seem to have tried, so your guesses are as good as mine as how people would adopt it. Experience in other setups does not help in that regard. In my reasoning, I have at least followed the principle that people will adapt to the situation to their best advantage, something they don't seem to be doing in yours (like spinning only in one league, even though they don't find a match there for some unexplained reason).

It makes sense to play in CCL at any time if you are playing for any other reason other than merely to qualify.

Not if you don't find matches (or find them less frequently). And if it were true, then the non-match-finding problem wouldn't occur towards the end of the season more frequently, so that is a clear indication that that statement is just false in general. If it were true, there would be no reason for a drop.

Matches tend to finish, I am told opponent quality is higher, there is greater team diversity, and the environment is moderated. If your intention is merely to qualify then I suggest you catch the boat on time rather than lamenting about it being too infrequent for you.

The problem is the only-qualify vs. also-casual crowd. Those who only want to qualify will stop/play less at some point (either they already are good high enough or don't see a chance of qualifying in the remaining time) and that makes the frequency of non-matching naturally higher for the other crowd, given a mainly constant player pool.

By giving the qualify-only people a reason to start at any point in time, you improve the life of the others. I really can't put it much simpler.

last edited by ugh

@arne said in Start a CCL season every 3 weeks.:

@ugh said in Start a CCL season every 3 weeks.:

I don't see any additional administration workload/cost approach (after the implementation effort, of course) with that approach.

Out of curiosity: Do you know what kind of work the admins are doing right now? I don't know what they have to do right now (after the release of the new tools with LE), but I know what they did half a year ago and that was rather surprising.

I don't see how this is relevant to the last proposal. As it would be an automatism (what teams to allow to play in the new season of CCL), no additonal manual work would be required, no matter what the current baselineof the manual work is.

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

@ugh said in Start a CCL season every 3 weeks.:

No one has suggested as much. But, as I consider my behavior pretty straightforward, I would generalise it to at least part (and I assume not an insignificant part, either) of the population. You can tell me why someone who doesn't find a match and does not have an infinite amount of time on their hand would choose a different behavior. That's going to be interesting.

Of course you assume your own behaviour is straightforward. That doesn't mean it can be generalised.

Your reasoning is making assumptions about a setup that you don't seem to have tried, so your guesses are as good as mine as how people would adopt it. Experience in other setups does not help in that regard. In my reasoning, I have at least followed the principle that people will adapt to the situation to their best advantage, something they don't seem to be doing in yours (like spinning only in one league, even though they don't find a match there for some unexplained reason).

Of course I've tried it. And I run this setup and have done for as long as it has existed. Of course people will adapt, but that doesn't mean that adaptation is beneficial to everyone.

Not if you don't find matches (or find them less frequently). And if it were true, then the non-match-finding problem wouldn't occur towards the end of the season more frequently, so that is a clear indication that that statement is just false in general. If it were true, there would be no reason for a drop.

Matches become less frequent in ladders towards the end pretty much regardless of their length. When we had 8-week seasons they dropped towards the end, and they also do now. They did in FOL when I ran that with an 8-week season (and that was without resetting teams). All you do by offering people an alternative is ensure that the dropoff happens sooner and more abruptly.

The problem is the only-qualify vs. also-casual crowd. Those who only want to qualify will stop/play less at some point (either they already are good high enough or don't see a chance of qualifying in the remaining time) and that makes the frequency of non-matching naturally higher for the other crowd, giving a mainly constant player pool.

As I have already said, all MM leagues with seasons taper towards the end of a season. You won't be giving a constant player-pool at all as all you'll be doing is ensuring the only people who have a chance to qualify start in the first 3 weeks of that league. That pushes people to the secondary league, killing off the primary.

By giving the qualify-only people a reason to start at any point in time, you improve the life of the others. I really can't put it much simpler.

By giving people a busier alternative you kill off a league before it is over. I can't really put it much simpler.

On top of all that is the fact that it will be more work and will require more prizes: not going to happen.

@dode74 said in Start a CCL season every 3 weeks.:

Since you already killed the original idea with the 'too much manual work' argument, I have already moved on to the new proposal in my mind.

I don't know whether you're saying that you already did overlapping seasons in the past. If so, why didn't you say that in the first place? Your statements up till the latest post (and even then) suggested only that you've experimented with the length of the season and you're confirming my suspicion that it's not just me that's experiencing a dropoff at the end (could have been personal bias, as well).

So, what about the alternative idea to carry non-qualified teams with few games into the next season for those who mainly play to qualify (and thus have no reason to start/play in the waning weeks and thus reduce the number of people spinning and thus the number of matches).

Your only deterring argument so far was the 'don't be too late on the train'. That ignores half of the picture.

With that idea, you would benefit everyone. Those who play to qualify and didn't catch the train in time (or just didn't qualify in the first few weeks and want to continue their re-spawning activities, i.e. those who have no reason to play at the end at the moment - causing the dropoff) would have a reason to continue playing. The others would have more players to be matched again. Everyone would get more games in their favorite environment.

Sounds like a win-win to me and should solve the problem I am trying to solve here. Implementation-wise, it should be simple to introduce further filtering mechanisms of what teams to accept in the new season. It's more than a flag to be checked (i.e. not a boolean comparison, but a number comparison), but I'm sure that can be managed programming wise.

Just saying/suggesting all season-based leagues have this problem, so no solution can exist is a bit unimaginative to me.

Unless you have already tried this approach as well and it has some other drawbacks I am not aware of. Then, of course, feel free to enlighten me.

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

No, I've not done overlapping seasons in the past precisely because of the reasons I've already given.

Allowing non-fresh teams in is not a player purely from a management perspective: you couldn't stop teams getting in from Open Ladder while simultaneously allowing teams in from a previous CCL. New programming of the sort you describe simply won't happen, and would be required.

As I said before, though, the same dropoff in play rates happened in FOL in BB1, where teams were able to carry over (in fact it was merely a rankings reset at the end of each season rather than anything else); qualifying teams couldn't carry across because they were in the playoffs. In fact, even without playoffs (which were abandoned towards the end of FOL) there was a dropoff in play rates towards the end of the season. I can only hypothesise that this was because such games didn't count towards ranking. Your proposed solution has basically been tried and didn't resolve the issue.

last edited by dode74

@ugh said in Start a CCL season every 3 weeks.:

@arne said in Start a CCL season every 3 weeks.:

@ugh said in Start a CCL season every 3 weeks.:

I don't see any additional administration workload/cost approach (after the implementation effort, of course) with that approach.

Out of curiosity: Do you know what kind of work the admins are doing right now? I don't know what they have to do right now (after the release of the new tools with LE), but I know what they did half a year ago and that was rather surprising.

I don't see how this is relevant to the last proposal. As it would be an automatism (what teams to allow to play in the new season of CCL), no additonal manual work would be required, no matter what the current baselineof the manual work is.

I am not really the right person to talk about this, since I am no admin and don't know everything in detail. However, I had the impression (not just here, but also in steam forums), that there are some key information missing for you: Just ask Dode, how exactly the 5-concession-rule is implemented and enforced, I am pretty certain, that it will blow your mind.

@ugh said in Start a CCL season every 3 weeks.:

As it would be an automatism (what teams to allow to play in the new season of CCL), no additonal manual work would be required, no matter what the current baselineof the manual work is.

Heh, keep in mind that CCL is run by Netheos and volunteer coaches with Cyanide having very little involvement. Pretty much everything is done manually up to and including the starting and ending of seasons, hunting down excess conceders, and so on. "It would be automated" implies someone is going to automate it, and Cyanide has no interest in doing it.

Could things be automated? Some of it - anything that is done via web interface, and to a lesser extent anything that is done via formulaic GUI interaction... but it takes a specific level of technical expertise to do. To date nobody has volunteered to make it happen - certainly nobody from the CCL admin team. Maybe you should try to join it an volunteer to be the tech guy who makes their life easier?

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