@dragonloup said in Another day with Claw, sad...:
@dode74 ok for the challenge/cherry picking mode . I used it and abused it bb1 it was fun. But your are bringing back farming on large scale. I can say for a fact that your datas are not reliable on that matter (unless you trim the cheaters from it) . People had 2 accounts, run the game in parrallal and built custom team. Or play with their buddy to just score or pass till they get the skill set they want. So of course they are not going to concede and loose mvp. If you can filter the cheaters on your meta then i ll take your point otherwise i am dubious about the challenge mode as the way forward. Anyway if it helps improving the chat system i would support it even if don t beleive in it. It would still be a nice addition for people who have limited time
Take a look at FUMBBL if you want data which is filtered for cheaters/picking etc. Picking does happen there but not on the scale of BB1 - it's policed. It's still vastly better than MM in terms of variety.
@supergnu said in Another day with Claw, sad...:
- If that is the case, why do you think that is?
Why do I think what is? You mean the median and mean TVs? Because it's so easy to concede and restart a team in MM and if it doesn't start well then people simply restart with a fresh team. That sort of behaviour in a league gets you booted out, but the ability to start a team at any tie is one of the important concepts of MM.
- Not a problem? Silly high? 2200 you get from casualy playing normaly and you still will have a team that is lacking a lot of skills. However most people will never get herebecuse their team will die before they hit 2.2k mark. Where is the attrition for the chaos teams? Oh yea there are none becuse they never fight eachother becuse they dont want their killers to be killed. The format is not correctly made.
Their team is supposed to take attrition at those TV levels. The problem is people give up on their team. You do see teams at 2200+ in private leagues and people don't give up on them for the same reason as given above. Turns out they can do pretty damned well with them, too. It's analogous to giving up on T2 just because you took a LOS cas: you can still win the match.
And yes, there is a lack of attrition for the killer teams themselves in MM because they simply concede to each other.
- You should actually play some games in the official COL league at 1700+ TV. COL have the issue with chaos becuse they have CPOMB. Simple as that. All of their characters can easily get CPOMB and they dont sacrifice anything for it. They are fast, they are averagly agile, they have average armor and they have access to CPOMB on normal rolls on every single player if they want to. You win by killing the other players team most of the times. Orcs and Dorfs cant get Claw to remove AV 9-10 completly. Huge difference. You dont think Chaos use Guard?
You're assuming the answer to the question when you say "simple as that". You've decided beforehand what the answer is so there's no point in discussing it with you because it's like a religious belief: "it just is". The rest of the post is rationalisation. Personally I'd prefer to go in with an open mind and work out what the problem is rather than deciding beforehand.
With that in mind, Orc/Dorf were the issue in LRB4 according to FUMBBL. Chaos can use guard but they start out with far fewer skills and need to take others to become reliable before taking guard. Chaos also need less guard due to the fact that all of their players can take a Blitz action at ST4 - that's pretty powerful in itself. Pact doesn't get that and we don't see major high-TV issues with Pact, for example (low TV is a different matter in MM).
Or you can make it so you can veto 1 or 2 races from all your games. Untill Cyanide decide to "fix" the clawproblem.
So remove CLaw from the open Leagues and you can keep it in your private ones, what is the problem?
Because plenty of people think competitive BB should be played with the full rules. It's far easier, simpler, and better to modify the environment rather than change the rules for the environment.
Challenge would answer your desires, though: if it were implemented you could simply refuse to play any claw teams.
@supergnu said in Another day with Claw, sad...:
Becuse every time the CPOMB thing has come up in the past you have been gagging on about Chaos bad WR. Wich is funny as you once provided a link to stats to prove your point. And you where correct, chaos had bad/average WR on TV1000, on 2000+ they had 70-85% WR however, depending on what race they where playing against.
They absolutely did not have a 70-85% win%. FUMBBL B puts them at 57.87% at 2000+ and at 54.46% above 1800TV. WE, Elves and DE all perform better at high TV than Chaos. Are you calling for an Elven nerf?
So basicly what you are saying is that CLAW is the only way to keep AV9/8 Races from getting to high TV? That is in my eyes a huge flaw of the game if that is why there is Claw in the game. Why is it a bad thing if bashteams go high in TV? Exactly what is the problem with that? So what you are saying is that it is okey for a race to have 70-85% WR on TV2k+ becuse they are bad at TV1k? That is the dumbest thing i have ever heard.
No, I'm not saying that because it's not happening. An equalisation of attrition rates is required in order to prevent any team getting to higher TVs, not just bash teams. That can be done on-pitch or off-pitch. LRB4 ageing was used previously and was generally hated, and the BBRC took that to mean something on-pitch was wanted and created the current version of claw to do that, while removing ageing. I now think they misinterpreted that, and what coaches actually wanted was a semblance of control over who they lost rather than being punished for levelling players. BB2016's rules on Seasons is the latest method, and I think it works better, personally: it's equal to all teams and allows coaches to choose who to retire within budgetary limitations. Personally I think the mistake BB2016 made was the change to PO: they should have instead changed claw when implementing seasons, making it less punishing in general. Changing PO wasn't a nerf to Chaos as much as it was a nerf to other bash/hybrid teams and a veritable boost to elven teams.