Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition)

Archived threads: Tweaking Brets 2.0 | Original thread


Played a lot of the Bretonnian team by now and learnt to appreciate their quirks a lot more. Because of that I'll keep it even simpler this time around. Pretty much everything has been said on the now archived forums anyway.

Here's how I'd like to see Brets changed for Legendary Edition:

  • Re-rolls: 50k (currently 70k)
  • Wrestlers (Blockers/Yeomen): gain Jump Up
  • Knights (Blitzers): AV9

Justification: Brets are just overpriced. 70k RRs may make sense for teams with 40k Linemen traditionally, but Peasants are simply not worth 40k. Wrestlers need Jump Up if they're supposed to be a viable alternative to comparable strength players. With Jump Up their price could be increased to 80k if they turn out to be too strong. Finally the Knights, who are supposed to be the heart and soul of the team, would actually become unique and somewhat outstanding players with agility access and AV9. I also very much like the idea of Peasants, Yeomen and Knights having an armour value of 7, 8 and 9 respectively - the armour gradually increasing as we move up the Bretonnian society.

last edited by Isarnwolf

Well,

I think reducing the RRs is a really good one and most likely the only one that has chance to get done.

The Knights with AV 9: I like it a lot, but as we all know there arent not enough people happy about that tweak.

Jump up on Yeomen: Nah, I think its overpowered and also not cool.

Just my thoughts,

Frog : )

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

I could get behind a reduction in reroll price.

I'd rather see the AV change, if I had to pick something.

I feel like 4 blodge av 9 pieces is a little much

@Tizzle-Bizzell Not when the rest of your team is overpriced and easy to remove. Not to mention that the Knights are supposed to be the stars of the team. Giving them a 7-3-3-9 stat line would make them a unique and powerful unit. If this turns out to be too strong (which I personally highly doubt, especially when Wrestlers stay the way they are), raise the price of Knights to 120k.

Still, the most important and simple change is changing the RR cost to 50k for Brets and that simply has to happen before anything else.

last edited by Isarnwolf

At av 8 and wrestle the blockers I don't think are so squishy, add four av9 Blodgers to that mix and I'd say it's a lil much, but that just my opinion. I do agree that the rerolls being 70k is too harsh,60k seems appropriate to me as we start loaded to the gills with skills at the out go

I agree. 4 AV9 STR/AG access players seems really powerful. I think the reduction in RR price likely makes sense. If anything were to happen to Bretts before LE (which I doubt), that's likely the only change I see as reasonable.

After LE comes out and we get data of all the teams performing against eachother then it might be more reasonable to address other changes if the data shows them performing poorly overall.

@Javelin Knights have GAP access. Strength only on doubles.

Hello new forum.

I have probably played more than 300 games with Bretonnians (rough estimate 150-100-50) and I agree that they need a tweak. As it stands we are just waiting for a STR4 or AG4 piece and trying not to die in meantime. Funny enough, I would say a good % of my wins come from forfeits. Fend, wrestle and fouling just seems to put people off I guess...

To make them unique and not just a weird human team, I support the idea of AV9. Give it to either the blockers or the blitzers as 8 x av9 pieces would be too much.

"But fend, wrestle and dauntless makes them unique through skills, not stats" -you might say...

Ok, then lets throw those skills in a hat and perform a "switch-a-roo":

-Peasants start with Wrestle (as is fitting for dirty, skill-less famers)
-Blockers start with Dauntless (as is fitting for a S access knight)
-Blitzers start with Catch, Block and Fend (as is fitting for a fancy pancy fencing knight)

Abracadabra! The whole team is fixed!

last edited by Lexingtond

I'd like to see them have a new positional - the jester, that would have AP skill access.

Something like 6237 Kick off return and Sure Hands plus a "jester" negatrait

Jester skill - if the player scores a touchdown the jester gets a hiding from the blitzers in the team for not knowing his place and handing off to his betters (makes armour roll)

This team has performed in the middle of Tier 1 since the Blitzers got AG access. They're fine.

Bretonnian Blockers are one of my favorite positionals, essentially discount Human Blitzers with the same skill access. The Wrestle skill is terrific for ball-hunting. Add Guard/Tackle/Stand Firm/Strip Ball and these are awesome utility players, capable of working in concert to bust open cages and bring down ball carriers, and if you want a killer, Tackle/Mighty/Blow/Piling On is still very workable against AG teams.

The Blitzers really don't need a plethora of skills to be incredibly useful. Anyone who has played against an experienced Elf team can tell you what a pain Blodge/Side Step/Diving Tackle players are (none of which requires AG4). Pop open a cage corner and slide one or two of these guys in and watch the opposing team's ball movement grind to a halt, or go mark some of those slippery Elves. The Dauntless skill fits right in, helping them deal with the beefier bashy teams.

The Linemen suck, but 6-3-2-7 Fend is a good sight better than 6-3-3-7 nothing that Chaos Dwarves and Vamps get, allowing for more survival/mobility. Vampire teams would kill for these linos.

But the boeuf and pommes d'terre of the Bretonnian teams are their Blitzers and Blockers, who work in tandem to make them a pretty tough defensive squad if used correctly, and they're not helpless offensively, either. The Bretonnians don't need to be buffed. They're fine the way they are.

last edited by SnapWilson

Buffing a race that is already OP cause of 4 players starting with Block and 4 players starting with Wrestle? That in itself is extremely powerful, if you know how to play the blocking game.

Feels like Khorne all over again.. whoever designed that silly race (glares at Dode) should take a good look in the mirror and ask themselves: "Wth were we thinking?" chuckles

And you lads go by data and winning stats. Disregarding common sense and critical thinking in the process.

Just leave them be, or rather don't allow Brets to participate in any Cabalvision competitions.

last edited by Enarion
BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

@Enarion said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

Buffing a race that is already OP...
And you lads go by data and winning stats.

Yes, because those things define what OP is. Your version of "common sense" is not ubiquitous. Facts are.

@dode74 said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

@Enarion said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

Buffing a race that is already OP...
And you lads go by data and winning stats.

Yes, because those things define what OP is. Your version of "common sense" is not ubiquitous. Facts are.

Just replied to VoodooMike, your stats and data hugging buddy, in the Halfling thread.

Facts can be misleading. :)

last edited by Enarion
BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

@Enarion said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

Facts can be misleading. :)

Depends on how you use them. The fact is that they are not OP based on the data, despite your apparent opinion otherwise.

@Enarion said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

And you lads go by data and winning stats. Disregarding common sense and critical thinking in the process.

If your "common sense" and "critical thinking" lead you to the wrong answers then maybe you should consider alternative avenues of investigation?

Try to remember that your personal experiences are not separate from the data... they are a subset of the data, which encompasses everybody's experiences. When you form an opinion it is based on internal statistical analysis and personal experience data... which is just a worse version of the real math, and a much, much smaller sample than the full data.

I am pretty sure that who ever thinks Bretonnians are a fine team just has not played them enough and that he who says they are OP just has not played enough Blood Bowl 2 in general.

There are two reasons to "tweak" the Bretonnian team and the beautiful thing is that both of them can be achieved at the same time.

The first reason is to simply make them better. Right now Bretonnians can beat low TV Halflings, Goblins, Vampires and Ogres but fight an uphill battle against all the other teams. Why is that? It is because they have almost every flaw a team can have in this game other than "do nothing/something crazy on ones" like Ogres, Vampires etc.

-Low AV: having minimum 3x AV7 players on the field means that against a savy opponent that attacks those pieces first, Bretonnians are essentially a AV7 team untill they are down 3 players. Being AV7 is a flaw that is often used to even out some other advantages like with many elf teams and norse.

-Not fast: In a game of bashing, grinding, stalling cages, being slow and not being fast is almost the same thing= you are not fast. Not being fast is a flaw that is often used to even out other advantages like high str or AV like orcs or dwarfs. Fast teams like WE, Humans and Skaven do not have this flaw.

-Not strong: Having no player with str 4 or higher is a flaw that is often used in team design to even out other advantages like speed, agility or high AV. Elf teams for example have no str 4 but a lot of AG4 for example.

-Not agile: having no agility 4 player is a flaw that is often used when trying to balance teams that have great strength or armour like chaos and dwarf teams.

-Not cheap: Expensive players is a flaw that is often used to balance out very good teams like Necro or Elf teams. Granted, the Bretonnian linemen are cheap compared to other linemen but so are Grots and you don't see many people praising Grots these days. Being AV7 and AG2 makes the peasants horrible pieces, not worth 40k in my opinion as they cannot handle the ball, dodge away or take a punch. I would personally take 20k Grots over the 40k lineman every day of the week.

-Expensive rerolls: Expensive rerolls are a flaw used to balance teams with very strong positionals like Chaos Dwarfs and Necromantic. Bretonnian rerolls cost 70k, the highest price any team pays for rerolls in the game.


So what are their strengths? They must be many and overlapping to warrant so many flaws, right?

----> they are "jack of all trades masters of none"

No they are not. Instead of being able to attack your opponents flaws and capitalize on them like Hunan teams can do, the Bretonnians do the exact opposite and let every team they play play to its strengths. That is, fast teams get to outrun you, strong teams out bash you and agile teams outplay you.

--> The blitzers can win games all on their own.

No they cannot. 19/20 games I lose I lose cause I get bashed down to 4-7 players. No 7338 piece can dominate a blood bowl field by itself without Claw+Po+Mb.

--> They start out with some very good skills.

No they do not. They are an AG3 running team with no sure hands and 70k rerolls. Picking up the ball is quite hard.

They have 4 players with catch but no pass.

They have four players with Str access that all start with wrestle and so has little synergy.

They have fend on AV7 pieces that above all else must try not to get hit in the first place so fend is questionable.

--> They can foul very well.

Yes they can. Lots of Wrestle and 40K useless linemen makes a good fouling combo. Is that really this teams niche? Are you telling me that whoever made the final decision regarding the Bretonnian team design thought to himself "I am going go make a team of mediocre knights that have great fouling potential" Then please give them 50k bribes like Goblins. The rich, corrupt Dukes paying everyone off so that their teams can win fits the Bretonnian fluff and playstyle.

The second reason to tweak Bretonnia is exactly that, to better represent the Bretonnian fluff and backstory.

The best way to do both at the same time would be to give them some better armour. Even if only the linemen would get AV8 it would change everything; Even if only the blockers would get AV9 that would change everything; Even if only the blitzers got AV9 that would change everything.

Raising the armour of one positional has been done before in this game with good results. Giving the Bretonnian team more armour would fit their armoured knights fluff like a glove and make wonders for their competitiveness at the same time. As it stands, the Human teams have higher AV with AV8 accross the board and one AV9 Thick Skull piece They are also better at picking up the ball, passing it, dodging with it, can run farther with it, are better at bashing and are almost just as good at fouling as there is only 10k difference in their lineman cost.

Please give the Knights a fighting chance to find the grail by giving them armour worthy of Bretonnia.

last edited by Lexingtond

I see absolutely nothing wrong with Brets. They are not OP as far as I'm concerned and not Tier 1 either.

I see no reason they should be improved, especially after they already got a tweak in the access to strength for the Wrestlers.

Perhaps I'm blinded by the fact ducke won with them before the tweak but I don't see why they should get better than they are now.

@SnapWilson said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

This team has performed in the middle of Tier 1 since the Blitzers got AG access. They're fine.

Bretonnian Blockers are one of my favorite positionals, essentially discount Human Blitzers with the same skill access. The Wrestle skill is terrific for ball-hunting. Add Guard/Tackle/Stand Firm/Strip Ball and these are awesome utility players, capable of working in concert to bust open cages and bring down ball carriers, and if you want a killer, Tackle/Mighty/Blow/Piling On is still very workable against AG teams.

The Blitzers really don't need a plethora of skills to be incredibly useful. Anyone who has played against an experienced Elf team can tell you what a pain Blodge/Side Step/Diving Tackle players are (none of which requires AG4). Pop open a cage corner and slide one or two of these guys in and watch the opposing team's ball movement grind to a halt, or go mark some of those slippery Elves. The Dauntless skill fits right in, helping them deal with the beefier bashy teams.

The Linemen suck, but 6-3-2-7 Fend is a good sight better than 6-3-3-7 nothing that Chaos Dwarves and Vamps get, allowing for more survival/mobility. Vampire teams would kill for these linos.

But the boeuf and pommes d'terre of the Bretonnian teams are their Blitzers and Blockers, who work in tandem to make them a pretty tough defensive squad if used correctly, and they're not helpless offensively, either. The Bretonnians don't need to be buffed. They're fine the way they are.

Dear Mr.SnapWilson

Please allow me to disagree with you here.

Bretonnian blockers might be your favorite positionals but in no way are they discount human blitzers. Ask any one who has played a lot of blood bowl and they will tell you that what makes human blitzers so great is their movement 7 and block skill. If the human blitzers had wrestle instead of block they would be terrible pieces because wrestle does not synergize with strength skills like Mighty Blow, Piling On, Guard or Stand Firm as they don't get to hit people with their MB as much (also meaning less SPP and slower development) and they end up on the floor a lot taking away their guard/stand firm/piling on skills. Again, ask your self what you would like to do against a guard piece? I would like to wrestle him to the ground, how about you? Having wrestle on blockers with guard is basically giving the wrestle skill to every single block piece that wants to hit them for free. Ball hunting with an AG3 M6 piece is also an exercise in futility.

Regarding the blitzers. You say they don't need a plethora of skills and then list block, dodge, sidestep and diving tackle as your example, block being the only one that blitzers start with. In around 300-400 games of playing bretonnians in the champions ladders I think I have only once been able to level a blitzer up 3 times and then he got gimped in the first match after that my schod's Tomb Guardinans. Needing 3 skills to be good is not good. Oh, and even with these 3 skills then you are still missing sure hands.

Regarding the lineman: I would LOVE to get Hobgoblins or Thralls instead of Peasants. Being able to give a HobGob or a Thrall surehands would be a lifesaver as then my blockers could focus on taking people down and my Blitzers could focus on getting agility skills like you suggested. But needing to "sacrifice" a skill for the pick up on either a piece that has wrestle and so does not want to be carrying the ball due to being on the ground a lot, or the blitzers that get one of the widest skill selections in the game, is very bad when you are trying to get placed in the champions league as you need to get as many top-tier skills like dodge, sidestep, mighty blow and guard as soon as possible on you positionals. On top of that, all of our blitzers already start with catch, so they already have their own "surehands" reroll on handoffs, so if someone else could just please pick up the ball for them, thank you.

Bretonnians are also only a good defensive team as long as they have 11 players. That happens in around 1 out of 50 drives for me. Most of the time I lose 1-2 pieces just from the line of scrimmage and then 1-4 pieces over the rest of the half meaning I am trying to play defense with 5-8 players which is hard enough even before you take into account that half of the pieces remaining will be spending a lot of time on the ground with no tackle zones. For example, in this champ ladder I have had to restart by bretonnian team 7 times due to injuries and deaths. Right now I am playing my Bordeleaux Bullfrogs and am currently 2-0-2 with 41 injuries sustained in 4 matches. If you think I am just basing players and playing like a fool, think again and watch my replays.

Look, everything you said is basically the default opinion people make of Brets based on playing 20 games with them. On paper they don't look as bad as they are in "real life" (so to speak. If you were crazy like me and would take 2-4 hours out of your day 6-7 days a week for pretty much a whole year to play Bretonnians, I am pretty sure you would come to at least the same conclusions as me.

last edited by Lexingtond
BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

Brets have been in the 45-49 range for win% for the past few full CCL seasons. This season they are currently they are at 58, but I expect that will drop by the end of the season. They're not underpowered for a T1.5 team, and are in the bracket for T1.

@dode74 said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

Brets have been in the 45-49 range for win% for the past few full CCL seasons. This season they are currently they are at 58, but I expect that will drop by the end of the season. They're not underpowered for a T1.5 team, and are in the bracket for T1.

Yes I know. I win with them all the time because I am a good player and sometimes just get lucky. That does not change the fact that they are a bad team with a very frustrating lack of synergy and multiple flaws without any real advantages. Is that really what the game designers were going for?

The win percentages do not tell the whole story. Just take a look at the fact that the best teams in the game like Chaos Dwarfs and Lizard Men only manage around 55% wins according to your data and yet all the top teams in every single champion ladder from the start have had records somewhere along the lines of 22-5-2 (completely made up numbers). I am no statistician but I just don't see any T1 teams competing in the champion ladder with just 55% wins. Not one.

last edited by Lexingtond
BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

You're confusing "top teams" with "overall team performance". Clearly the top teams all do very well pretty much regardless of race, but those teams are only part of the picture. As well as those teams doing well there are also plenty of teams who have done badly: teams which played one, lost one and were deleted, for example.
Balance in BB is based on win percentages and lifetime performance. You don't get to ignore the poor records and only point at the good ones.

@Naissun said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

I see absolutely nothing wrong with Brets. They are not OP as far as I'm concerned and not Tier 1 either.

I see no reason they should be improved, especially after they already got a tweak in the access to strength for the Wrestlers.

Perhaps I'm blinded by the fact ducke won with them before the tweak but I don't see why they should get better than they are now.

Improving and tweaking is not necessarily the same thing. I am not saying Bretonnia should be improved so that they can wreck face, like give all the blitzers AG4 for free or something I am just suggesting that some of the ideas behind the team (like starting out with wrestle and fend) could be implemented in a better way, making the original vision really come into its own.

We must take into account that contrary to all the other races in the game, Bretonnians have not been played for 20 years, so there is no real experience to draw from and so people must acknowledge that many decisions regarding the Bretonnians that have already been made were based on very little other than a whim.

I mean, the current design is so flawed that many players that have been testing this Cyanide made team have come to the conclusion that the core design of the team is just so flawed that Bretonnians should be scrapped altogether as a playable race. Whether that flaw is that the team underperforms or is just boring to play matters not in that regard.

Please allow me to tell you, as a coach who has played Bretonnia MUCH more than most of you (if not all) , that they could really use a tweak. Something like a redistribution of skills as I noted above (werewolves once had catch) or raising their armour while raising their cost as well (human catchers were AV7 and costed less) which would not be just a flat out improvement but rather a tweak.

I mean, just straight up improving them like lowering their cost or the cost of their rerolls would surely work to their benefit but would not fix the core problem that most players don't like the current wrestle/str blockers, fend/Av7 peasants and catch+block+dauntless/m7 blitzers setup.

last edited by Lexingtond

@dode74 said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

You're confusing "top teams" with "overall team performance". Clearly the top teams all do very well pretty much regardless of race, but those teams are only part of the picture. As well as those teams doing well there are also plenty of teams who have done badly: teams which played one, lost one and were deleted, for example.
Balance in BB is based on win percentages and lifetime performance. You don't get to ignore the poor records and only point at the good ones.

I am sorry if I am causing a confusion but I am not confusing the two.

In statistics it is very important to look deeper into the sample to interpret the data correctly. If you are just pooling every single game played by every single person in the world regardless of age/skill then your statistics only tells a part of the story (for example, my 8 year old daughter likes to play DE with two witches because they are girls. She is a part of your statistics scewing both the win/loss ratio, team composition, number of TO, TD, the whole lot.)

What also scews your data is that it is the players choice to play bretonnia. That means better or worse coaches might have a tendancy to play more bretonnia than others. French speakers for example seem to play more bretonnia than any other demographic and I know for a fact that the bloodbowl player pool in France is very strong.

Another thing that scews your data is not separating the statistics from teams that play more than 3-5 games from those that play only one or two. Many players that start with a new team and suffer a permanent injury in the first half just give up right away and either fool around, go AFK or just end their turns on the first second. At the other end you have teams that get a stat up in the first game, like an ag4 blitzer. Those teams then probably end up playing alot more games then other teams and will win alot more. This further scews your data that the good (buffed up) teams play more and that bad (niggled) teams play less and often give away games.

So I am not interested in the "world wide data" as the sample does not represent my demographic or any specific one for that matter. I am deliberately pointing out that all of the teams that place in the top 50 in the championship ladder blow your averages out of the park so I find them to be suspect. To further illustrate my point if it is not coming accross clearly is that if you would take the avarage income for families accross the world and then try to apply those statistics to interpret how much electricians make on average. Your sample would be so wildly scattered that no aspiring electrician could rely on your results.

Ok wow off point perhaps. What I am claiming based on my own experience playing the team in both champ and open ladder is that the designers failed to design the bretonnians as a 1.5 team (what ever that means) as they cannot be relied upon to to do anything (bash, pass, pick up, run), which makes them equal to Ogres and Vampires in many regards, all the while lacking any quirks to make them funny and/or enjoyable like secret weapons, stunties or big guys. I have made several points proposing changes that would make the whole "wrestle+fend" niche work better mainly by either raising the lineman AV or moving fend to the blitzers and wrestle to the peasants. I have many other more radical ideas that I am more than willing to share if you would like, like raising the AG of peasants to 3 and giving the knight animosity towards them.

That bretonnian teams are winning games the whole world over is not something that is a reliable fact all by itself. Now I am not refuting your stats I am just saying that due to a total lack of control on your samples, I take them with a big pinch of salt and urge developers to do the same and instead come down to ground level with us dedicated bretonnia players (all three of us) and get some qualitative information rather then quantitative.

last edited by Lexingtond

@Lexingtond said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

We must take into account that contrary to all the other races in the game, Bretonnians have not been played for 20 years, so there is no real experience to draw from and so people must acknowledge that many decisions regarding the Bretonnians that have already been made were based on very little other than a whim.

Only if you accept that everything you're proposing is, likewise, nothing but a whim unless it is supported by the actual data from Bretonnian play. You seem to be treating your personal, anecdotal experience as hard data while dismissing the actual data, and dismissing the anecdotal experience of the folks who tested the roster (it was made prior to BB2).

@Lexingtond said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

I mean, the current design is so flawed that many players that have been testing this Cyanide made team have come to the conclusion that the core design of the team is just so flawed that Bretonnians should be scrapped altogether as a playable race. Whether that flaw is that the team underperforms or is just boring to play matters not in that regard.

I think you should stick to speaking for yourself instead of implying to speak for a large but faceless group of people who just don't seem to be popping in en-masse to say "me too!" to your posts. People continue to play the Bret roster, so clearly they have not all abandoned it due to it being boring. You haven't either.

@Lexingtond said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

Please allow me to tell you, as a coach who has played Bretonnia MUCH more than most of you (if not all) , that they could really use a tweak.

Oh, well if you pinky swear then I guess that's as good as facts.

@Lexingtond said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

In statistics it is very important to look deeper into the sample to interpret the data correctly. If you are just pooling every single game played by every single person in the world regardless of age/skill then your statistics only tells a part of the story (for example, my 8 year old daughter likes to play DE with two witches because they are girls. She is a part of your statistics scewing both the win/loss ratio, team composition, number of TO, TD, the whole lot.)

Statistics tell you a story about what you look at... if we're talking about a roster that we want to be accessible to everybody then we really do want to look at the experiences of everybody. We want the highs and the lows, and we want to let the math create the appropriate distribution for us to examine (which already tells us the difference between the best, the worst, and the average players).

@Lexingtond said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

What also scews your data is that it is the players choice to play bretonnia. That means better or worse coaches might have a tendancy to play more bretonnia than others. French speakers for example seem to play more bretonnia than any other demographic and I know for a fact that the bloodbowl player pool in France is very strong.

It doesn't "screw" the data at all. If there's a specific human demographic that gravitates toward a game roster then there's little reason to assume that will change tomorrow, or next month, or next year... especially if, as you're suggesting, they're gravitating toward it based on fluff. Changing the mechanical aspects of the team wouldn't, then, affect the appeal with that demographic. The data reflects the play of all the people who feel like playing Bretonnians. Sounds good to me.

@Lexingtond said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

Another thing that scews your data is not separating the statistics from teams that play more than 3-5 games from those that play only one or two. Many players that start with a new team and suffer a permanent injury in the first half just give up right away and either fool around, go AFK or just end their turns on the first second. At the other end you have teams that get a stat up in the first game, like an ag4 blitzer. Those teams then probably end up playing alot more games then other teams and will win alot more. This further scews your data that the good (buffed up) teams play more and that bad (niggled) teams play less and often give away games.

Because Bretonnians play in a vacuum? Keep in mind that everything you're positing about the Bret roster can be applied to every other roster too, meaning that the data from teams that people don't bother to play is, by its very definition, less represented than data from teams people DO bother to play... in all rosters. That means the teams these supposed "superior" bret teams (which we're really just defining as the teams people don't throw away after 3 or so games) are mostly playing games against the supposed "superior" teams of every other roster, because those are the teams people didn't throw away after 3 games too ;)

Let me tell you something REAL about statistics: you don't want to try to control for a lot of factors, because if you do then the results you get can't be generalized to larger data populations. People with little or no experience with statistics don't understand that the broad view is the one we want, not the narrow view... though usually they argue for the narrow view because the broad view isn't showing them a picture that matches what they decided was true beforehand.

@Lexingtond said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

So I am not interested in the "world wide data" as the sample does not represent my demographic or any specific one for that matter. I am deliberately pointing out that all of the teams that place in the top 50 in the championship ladder blow your averages out of the park so I find them to be suspect.

I suspect Cyanide and Focus are more interested in overall data than in what one guy is interested in. Pointing out that teams in the top 50 of all teams are not showing win rates that match the averages is... almost comical. It is, in essence, saying that the best teams are different from the average teams... which just means you haven't worked out the difference in meaning between the words "best" and "average".

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

What I am claiming based on my own experience playing the team in both champ and open ladder is that the designers failed to design the bretonnians as a 1.5 team

And yet they achieved it.

Ok, look I could answer every one of your points in detail but I will leave that alone aleast for the time being. I see I am not getting my point across clear enough. In some cases I am talking about just bretonnians and in others all teams. Maybe I was not clear enough...

My main point is that quantatative data over win/lose or even games played does not necessarily indicate wether the team is well liked or not.

Let me then just suggest that you guys take a random sample of 2000 players and just ask them yes or no "would you like to see the current bretonnia team changed in any way?" and report back with your findings. Or better yet "on a scale of 1-10 how well do like the bretonnian team?"

Regarding my own experience I would think that you guys could just look me up and see how many games Ive played (?)

Oh, and finally, for the record I said scewed.

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last edited by Lexingtond

@Lexingtond said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

Ok, look I could answer every one of your points in detail but I will leave that alone aleast for the time being.

Oh, well... that's almost as good as actual answers.

@Lexingtond said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

My main point is that quantatative data over win/lose or even games played does not necessarily indicate wether the team is well liked or not.

True. Neither does you voicing your opinion of them, though, especially since by your own admission you play them more than just about anybody. Your opinion tells us what one person thinks of the team, contradicted by the fact that they didn't dislike it enough to stop playing it constantly. You can certainly say "I'd rather my Bret team won more than it does", and that'd be believable... also tautological, since I suspect every coach of every team of every roster would rather they won more than they do.

@Lexingtond said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

Let me then just suggest that you guys take a random sample of 2000 players and just ask them yes or no "would you like to see the current bretonnia team changed in any way?" and report back with your findings. Or better yet "on a scale of 1-10 how well do like the bretonnian team?"

Or lets ask a random sample of 2000 people if they'd rather not pay taxes next year, or "on a scale of 1-10 how much do you enjoy waiting at stop lights?". Not everything is about making a certain set of people happy, especially in a multiplayer game where success is a zero-sum game.

@Lexingtond said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

Regarding my own experience I would think that you guys could just look me up and see how many games Ive played (?)

It could be a million, and it'd still be anecdote because your games only represent how the team works in your hands. Changes made to the team affect everybody, so the experiences of a single person are not generalizable to the target demographic.

@Lexingtond said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

Oh, and finally, for the record I said scewed.

Ok, my bad. I mistook it for an actual word ;) For future reference it's "skewed" with a k. There is zero evidence that the data is skewed for the reasons you posited either... no more than there is evidence that Chaos is primarily played by Germans and thus, their win rates aren't "legit" or whatever.

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

@Lexingtond said in Tweaking Brets 2.5 (Pre-LE Special Edition):

My main point is that quantatative data over win/lose or even games played does not necessarily indicate wether the team is well liked or not.

"Well liked" is not an indication of balance. It's "well liked" criteria which brought us the (now reversed) Orc nerf.

Regarding my own experience I would think that you guys could just look me up and see how many games Ive played (?)

Coachname? Not that it will make a huge difference to the facts, but it would be nice to see if you're as good as you claim you are ;)
I'm not saying you're not, just looking for data to support the assertion :P

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