Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim

There are some things from their PC version of Mordheim that just were bad, and didn't add any enjoyment to the game. Here's some of what I hope they don't keep.

-Climbing chance/percentage.

-Time you have to sit out training a character if they level up.

-Wyrdstone or similar gathering.

-Hit points like Mordheim. That system will make 40k weapons seem like a joke, where things could happen like one of your Juves getting a direct hit from a bolter failing his armor save, and is still standing while possible in the TT (fail to wound roll), it was highly unlikely.

-The horrible starting position system for missions. Especially the scatter from a fright one Just use a side deployment system and add placement locations in the whole deployment area and let us decide if we want to break off a strike team to the side or not. And let use place characters on the map.

-Their adaptation of Mordheim's leveling system. Having to by replacements from a merc list was annoying, and actually took away imo from the attrition you could face in the TT game. And starting over at 0 in the late game in Mordheim meant really a waste of a warband member who would get one shot by leveled up opponents unless you just sat him back away from combat, which meant leveling them would take forever. The TT of Mordheim and Necromunda, it wasn't the end of the world for a warband or gang member to die and you having to replace him (unless you really had bad luck and had multiples you couldn't afford to replace). Where in their adaptation of Mordheim, it ended up really affecting strategy in tactics and builds. Survival builds and anti-crit builds became common meta.

I'd like to see a more faithful leveling system like Cynanide Studios did for Bloodbowl which is a pretty close true adaptation of the TT. I like that you didn't always get what you wanted, and had to deal with it. And I liked that in the Mordheim and Necromunda TT also.

last edited by Anguloke

I kinda expect you will not like what i will say, but i'll give my opinion on some of the stuff you put.

-On climbing chance, i don't see much issue there, but if you don't like it, it could be changed for something more simple, such as climbing costs one strategic point, or if it is a long climb, 2 strategic points.

-The training time definetly should be removed since in Mordheim it just hinders your warband against the AI enemy, which will be the same level as your warband and also fully trained.

-I don't think we will have something similar to warpstone shipments in Necromunda, because the game over should be if your gang gets wiped out or your territory gest taken. I really hope they don't go the "Send Archeotech to the Guilders" route.

-I talked with another user about the deployment rules, and i think it should depend on the mission you do (i suggested to have defensive and offensive missions) and as well about something else: sewer control. If you have control over the sewers completing secondary objectives you will have more advantageous deployment rules and be able to choose from 2 or 3 options.

-Hit points are a delicate point, because they are solid for the game. But like you said, it wouldn't do justice that a juve would survive a barrage of heavy bolter bullets at the verge of death. It was still possible (if he was lucky and always rolled flesh wounds), but incredibly unlikely. They could actually achieve the real lethality of Necromunda in 2 ways: either go to the TT system or tweak the weapons to make them more varied and beef them in terms of firepower since most weapons in Mordheim feel very same-y and were more or less interchangeable (specially one handed weapons). I expect that a Las pistol is not just like a normal pistol but with a different effect.

-I really liked the leveling system in Mordheim since it's quite solid and allows you to specialize your warriors quite nicely. I think the main gripe is in the fact that you will always have to face fresh warbands that are equal to you in terms of rating, which is quite tricky. For example, if your warband falls behind in terms of equipment and skills, some members of the other warband will have permanent wounds (such as missing arms) in order to balance the fight. I really hope we don't have to deal with that in Necromunda and that since the beginning of the game we will have a permanent rival gang roster that we will face and if we deal a crippling blow to a gang, that gang will fall behind in terms of power and equipment compared to you. That should fix more or less the prevalent of making your warband "to last in battle" instead of "being effective".

As well, you bring a valind point with the new recruits once you have advanced in the game (even if the enemy warbands will have a lower level member, but it's a random one and that makes it incredibly tricky, specially when you decide to deploy your impressive), since they will barely be a huge liability and you will have to either babysit them for an extended period of time or make them dedicated rockpickers unless you decide to spend a fortune on a Hired Sword.

Personally, i like the current leveling system, but the TT leveling system isn't so bad to be honest. I know that we will not have all we want, but the best we can do is give input so they can work on the basis they have with Mordheim.

Strategic points for climbing would be a great alternative. That is how the up and down movement is done in the TT, through their measured movement rate.

I don't mind disadvantages in deployment like in Necromunda Scenarios. But at least you had choices in deployment, it was just a restriction on what areas you deployed, not scattering your warband randomly with no control.

I prefer the TT over their mordheim leveling. For the most part you had choices, but sometimes what table you choice from wasn't exactly what you had in mind. The ability of specializing really broke not only balance in my opinion, but part of the fun, in that sometimes you got a roll to pick off a chart you weren't expecting, or even a chart that normally that character didn't have access to. Where in their mordheim it was formula limitations, and min maxing. The was still min maxing in the TT, but it was hard to perfect it with the random factor. And it fit with the idea that sometimes you have to deal with the abilities you are given not what you want.

Well, i suggested the strategic point cost depending on the distance you climb. In Mordheim there were certain climbing points that were much higher than the regular ones. Therefore, you could have 1 strategic point for regular climbing actions and 2 for the long climbing actions. Still, jumping down and across should be 1 point.

That is what me and another user suggested in another thread when talking about the missions that will be in the game and the deployment rules. In some missions you will usually have 2 deployment rules and if you are in a serious disadvantage, only 1. But if you complete secondary objectives you would have 3 favorable deployment rules in the next mission to pick from. I really wish they do this and let you have more choice to deploy.

When it comes to leveling up, you have a good point, since most builds end up min maxing stats and it takes away part of the fun. But at the same time i think having random rolls determine your stats would make it a bit frustrating, but i think it's a possibility that might fix the whole "min maxing stats". It's really hard that get it right, or at least for me.

As well, i talked quite a lot about missions and other things, such as having clear objectives and all that. It's something i hope we see in Necromunda to give the missions a little bit of variety outside the "make the enemy warband run away"

last edited by Glarghface

@anguloke said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

There are some things from their PC version of Mordheim that just were bad, and didn't add any enjoyment to the game. Here's some of what I hope they don't keep.

-Climbing chance/percentage.

-Time you have to sit out training a character if they level up.

-Wyrdstone or similar gathering.

-Hit points like Mordheim. That system will make 40k weapons seem like a joke, where things could happen like one of your Juves getting a direct hit from a bolter failing his armor save, and is still standing while possible in the TT (fail to wound roll), it was highly unlikely.

-The horrible starting position system for missions. Especially the scatter from a fright one Just use a side deployment system and add placement locations in the whole deployment area and let us decide if we want to break off a strike team to the side or not. And let use place characters on the map.

-Their adaptation of Mordheim's leveling system. Having to by replacements from a merc list was annoying, and actually took away imo from the attrition you could face in the TT game. And starting over at 0 in the late game in Mordheim meant really a waste of a warband member who would get one shot by leveled up opponents unless you just sat him back away from combat, which meant leveling them would take forever. The TT of Mordheim and Necromunda, it wasn't the end of the world for a warband or gang member to die and you having to replace him (unless you really had bad luck and had multiples you couldn't afford to replace). Where in their adaptation of Mordheim, it ended up really affecting strategy in tactics and builds. Survival builds and anti-crit builds became common meta.

I'd like to see a more faithful leveling system like Cynanide Studios did for Bloodbowl which is a pretty close true adaptation of the TT. I like that you didn't always get what you wanted, and had to deal with it. And I liked that in the Mordheim and Necromunda TT also.

So in regards to climbing, it would be completely wrong to just allow automatic climb/jumps for just a SP cost - in the TT you had to make an initiativ test pr. I think, 2 1/2 inch of climbing. This translates into the video game as a percentage test, that is affected by your agility.. It makes perfect sense in my mind to have this in the game, and the SP cost is always 1 (for higher climbs it should maybe be twice that actually)
This should stay in Necromunda!

Training time for skills and the likes makes good sense in a strategic video game - it adds a management aspect instead of instant training. It would take away a lot of the challenge of the game if it wasn't there.

Wyrdstone deliveries is meh, I both hate and love them, but it is one mechanic I wouldn't mind if the team left out... Maybe you had to pay a fee to your House every so often, or you could just willingly send money their way, as to improve relations and gain benefits.

Regarding health they could deffinatly make that differently - the problem is, that you don't have ANY way to defend against ranged combat as you don't have a save mechanic. Only melee can be dodged/parried - all that stands against you and death is a miss. Rethinking it so that it will be use able in a video game will be tough.

A system like BB2 would be incredible for leveling!

When it came to the training, i already gave my reason: you will fall behind nonetheless because you have a very limited roster in Mordheim to have backup warriors to deploy when your guys are training. That will force you to waste time to get your guys trained, but also, enemy warbands will have fully trained warriors to go against you. Granted that they will have permanent injuries, but they will have a lot of skills that will make your life a lot more difficult. This could be solved in two ways that i've already discussed: either get the skills up when your guys rank up, or increase the roster size. But either way, i think the second is necessary in Necromunda.

Well, in Necromunda there isn't warpstone, but there is Archeotech that is scattered around the underhive. Very pricy and valuable, gangs know the Guilders pay a good mint for those. But i actually like better a "pay a thite to the House" instead of "collect archeotech and send it". Mainly, because your income would be tied to the loot you get + turf income, something that can be quite stable, but not completely reliable.

I also like the suggestion of diplomacy with other gangs. Paying them for a temporary truce to pick yourself up wouldn't be a bad idea.But at the same time... Well, it's money, and money is very valuable.

When it comes to the health, i already said the system is fine, but my main gripe is with weapons and a good solution to help with this if they beef up weapon damage when you get your hold on simply better weapons than the ones you had. Like leaving behind regular pistols and stubbers when you get your hold on Las weapons or a Plasma gun.

@game-knight said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

So in regards to climbing, it would be completely wrong to just allow automatic climb/jumps for just a SP cost - in the TT you had to make an initiativ test pr. I think, 2 1/2 inch of climbing. This translates into the video game as a percentage test, that is affected by your agility.. It makes perfect sense in my mind to have this in the game, and the SP cost is always 1 (for higher climbs it should maybe be twice that actually)

No it did not work that way.
"He may climb up to his total Movement in a single movement phase (but cannot run while he is climbing). Any remaining movement can be used as normal. If the height is more than the model’s normal move, he cannot climb"

Training time for skills and the likes makes good sense in a strategic video game - it adds a management aspect instead of instant training. It would take away a lot of the challenge of the game if it wasn't there.

It adds nothing positive to the game. This isn't something enjoyable at all, and wasn't part of the TT.

Regarding health they could deffinatly make that differently - the problem is, that you don't have ANY way to defend against ranged combat as you don't have a save mechanic. Only melee can be dodged/parried - all that stands against you and death is a miss. Rethinking it so that it will be use able in a video game will be tough.

Which is a flaw with the game as designed with Mordheim if they carry it over. They need to move to a system closer to the TT to work properly.

Here are good general questions to ask when adding rules in game design. Does it make the game more enjoyable or less? Is it necessary or not for balancing?

@anguloke

My climbing rules reference were from Mordheim - not Necromunda - we were discussing the climbing rules in Mordheim. Remember Mordheim came after Necromunda, thus these rules could easily carry over. I would be sad if climbing was removed entirely because it wasn't in the old rulebook...

Training time makes up for other imbalances, like randomization of skills (as mentioned in the other thread) - it adds something to the game when time is a factor (again, we are talking Mordheim there) when you have to fulfill your obligations to your contractor. If that is going to be a thing in Necromunda, I don't know, it is one of the things that have been yelled at constantly since release (like the combat rng... but that should not be changed). I think it can be done smarter and as I said the system I would rather see was like: first free and subsequent skills in the same tree cost credits - no training time.

@game-knight Nope.

"To climb, a model must take an Initiative test. If he fails it whilst climbing up, he cannot move that turn. If he fails it while climbing down, he falls from where he started his descent"

Which was rare with how the initiative was set up.

And again the skills were not RANDOM, stop lying.

last edited by Anguloke

@anguloke said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

@game-knight Nope.

"To climb, a model must take an Initiative test. If he fails it whilst climbing up, he cannot move that turn. If he fails it while climbing down, he falls from where he started his descent"

Which was rare with how the initiative was set up.

You still had to pass a test to climb - not pr. 2½ inches, I remembered that wrong - but the test and chance to fail is still there in Mordheim (which wasn't in Necromunda, but it makes sense to reuse this rule)

Not sure why you say that it was rare, normal units were initiativ 3, which ment 1/3 test would fail - only Skaven and some heroes/leaders had 1/6.... but it still ment it happened and the character would lose his entire turn.

EDIT:
Go read the Necromunda Rulebook again - you may have had some houserules at your club, but the skills were picked randomly. You only got to chose the TREE in which you rolled a skill.

last edited by Game kNight

@game-knight NO they freaking WEREN'T the rules YOU posted show they weren't.

@anguloke said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

@game-knight NO they freaking WEREN'T the rules YOU posted show they weren't.

Try again buddy - I've spelled it out for ya

I just looked at the rules and it's not lying to say it's random, it mostly is except for specific circumstances, such as rolling a Skill you have. If you mean picking the table isn't random, okay, but no it's pretty random for the most part and I really doubt that is appealing to a lot of people. I know that I prefer being able to plan my units' upgrades.

Being a straight up TT conversion isn't necessary, there's no reason to act like that's the only viable way to make the game, especially since that's very likely not how the game is going to be. It's not a matter of what the devs "need" to do, it's what we'd like them to do.

last edited by DeTortor

@game-knight said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

Training time for skills and the likes makes good sense in a strategic video game - it adds a management aspect instead of instant training. It would take away a lot of the challenge of the game if it wasn't there.

What challenge was that? All it was, was annoying forcing everyone to take the Veteran skill that extended delivery time so you had more time between deliveries to train up.

And why is it necessary for balancing? If you have to add something that is annoying like that to your game to balance it, you've done something wrong in the first place. Go back rebalance to adjust it to not need the training.

I don't know how many times I had so many Warband members sitting around waiting for training between needing gold and the time to do it. If they needed that sort of delay, they should have slowed down the leveling pace or balanced it some other way.

@detortor said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

I'd say speak for yourself then. Without significant polling from a large number of players, no one can say that players want or don't want them to stay true to the table top rules or not.

Well the video game market is larger than the table top for one, by the numbers Blood Bowl did have a larger peak of concurrent players than Mordheim, however X-Com dwarfs both of them, even now there's more people playing it, and I mean the first X-Com. So yeah I'm pretty confident that a straight TT conversion isn't where the numbers are, and the Necromunda setting itself is interesting enough to draw new players in, but a system that is too random tends to frustrate.

And frankly the burden of proof isn't really on me as it's rather probable that they're going to work on improving the system they have rather than design a whole new one.

last edited by DeTortor

@detortor said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

Well the video game market is larger than the table top for one, by the numbers Blood Bowl did have a larger peak of concurrent players than Mordheim, however X-Com dwarfs both of them, even now there's more people playing it, and I mean the first X-Com. So yeah I'm pretty confident that a straight TT conversion isn't where the numbers are, and the Necromunda setting itself is interesting enough to draw new players in, but a system that is too random tends to frustrate.

And frankly the burden of proof isn't really on me as it's rather probable that they're going to work on improving the system they have rather than design a whole new one.

This

My main hope is that we get something similar to Mordheim, but more polished. Because the current gameplay and system is good and fairly solid, but not perfect, and that is what probably most of us expect: a familiar but better game than the previous game.

@detortor said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

Well the video game market is larger than the table top for one

That doesn't mean the video game market for Necromunda is larger. And I bet if you compare data to Mordheim table top sales to the game, the table top sales would be higher. It had a niche following just like Necromunda will.

And frankly the burden of proof isn't really

It absolutely is when you make a claim it is always your job to support that claim. You can't here. And now you are trying to move to goal posts when called on it.

Move the goal posts? What are you talking about, I substantiated my point already. But my other point remains, if someone wants to convince the developers to do a TT conversion the burden of proof is on them to show that for example table top sales of Necromunda are to be higher than Necromunda video game. To me setting your sights to a fraction of Necromunda TT doesn't sound like a great goal, especially when the setting is cool enough to expand appeal.

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