Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim

@detortor said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

Move the goal posts? What are you talking about, I substantiated my point already. But my other point remains, if someone wants to convince the developers to do a TT conversion the burden of proof is on them to show that for example table top sales of Necromunda are to be higher than Necromunda video game. To me setting your sights to a fraction of Necromunda TT doesn't sound like a great goal, especially when the setting is cool enough to expand appeal.

no you haven't. You haven't provided one bit of data to prove that the computer versions have more numbers for this specific game. You dishonestly use the over generalized number of all computer gaming.

So basically you don't have the integrity to back up your words or use honest data.

@deyjarl said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

@detortor said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

Move the goal posts? What are you talking about, I substantiated my point already. But my other point remains, if someone wants to convince the developers to do a TT conversion the burden of proof is on them to show that for example table top sales of Necromunda are to be higher than Necromunda video game. To me setting your sights to a fraction of Necromunda TT doesn't sound like a great goal, especially when the setting is cool enough to expand appeal.

no you haven't. You haven't provided one bit of data to prove that the computer versions have more numbers for this specific game. You dishonestly use the over generalized number of all computer gaming.

So basically you don't have the integrity to back up your words or use honest data.

Actually I did Mr. Sensitive. By the dark gods don't be such a child about this.

The general video game market is larger, and I also mentioned the popular X-Com, which has 10 times peak congruity than either game and had at least twice the players at that very moment when I looked it up.

last edited by DeTortor

@detortor said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

Well the video game market is larger than the table top for one

My stating the table top industry for Bloodbowl, Mordheim, and Necromunda are bigger than the video game markets is just as valid by your own dishonest logic.

Your statement only applies to the general video game industry not these individual titles. You have absolutely ZERO support to claim that the video game market for these specific titles is bigger. And especially given the number of years these Table Top games have been around and their world wide player base.

So put up or shut up and admit you have no leg to stand on for your claim. You can look at Steam data and see easily that Blood Bowl and Mordheim were niche fanbases compared to the wider game industry and only drew a tiny, tiny portion.

When you are able to show your data to prove your claim on these specific titles not the wider gaming playerbase. Then I'll be willing to show bring the steam data up. But I know you won't, because you don't have or know it, and never did.

So if you continue to want to be that dishonest, go right ahead, but most people are going to see your dishonesty pretty clearly.

The only one being sensitive is the fact YOU can't admit you are wrong.

I thought the other guy was dishonest in his refusal admit he was wrong on the rules. You are no better in your dishonesty.

last edited by Deyjarl

@deyjarl said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

@detortor said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

Well the video game market is larger than the table top for one

My stating the table top industry for Bloodbowl, Mordheim, and Necromunda are bigger than the video game markets is just as valid by your own dishonest logic.

Your statement only applies to the general video game industry not these individual titles. You have absolutely ZERO support to claim that the video game market for these specific titles is bigger. And especially given the number of years these Table Top games have been around and their world wide player base.

So put up or shut up and admit you have no leg to stand on for your claim. You can look at Steam data and see easily that Blood Bowl and Mordheim were niche fanbases compared to the wider game industry and only drew a tiny, tiny portion.

When you are able to show your data to prove your claim on these specific titles not the wider gaming playerbase. Then I'll be willing to show bring the steam data up. But I know you won't, because you don't have or know it, and never did.

So if you continue to want to be that dishonest, go right ahead, but most people are going to see your dishonesty pretty clearly.

The only one being sensitive is the fact YOU can't admit you are wrong.

I thought the other guy was dishonest in his refusal admit he was wrong on the rules. You are no better in your dishonesty.

Disagreement isn't dishonesty, trying to make your's the moral argument for video game mechanics is ridiculous to the point of childishness. I really doubt others think I'm being dishonest, it just looks like you're getting upset that someone has a different opinion than yours. I don't know what you're expecting, an in-depth study for an internet debate? I mean come on dude. You don't need to have data on these specific games to compare numbers and speculate.

It's self evident that the video game market is bigger than tabletop, it's a multibillion dollar industry. Tabletop is a niche market, and Necromunda/Blood Bowl/Mordheim are niche markets of a niche market. Therefore by nature targeting specifically the those table top and video game fans is going to be a tiny market. And I did evidence this, the comparison between both Mordheim and Blood Bowl to XCom, all Turn Based Strategy games, shows that it has ten times the numbers as judged by peak simultaneous playing, somewhere around 70,000 players at once compared to less than 7,000. If you don't like my example that's not me being dishonest, that's you questioning the validity. You looking at my evidence and accusing me of a liar doesn't make me think you're right, it makes me think you have no argument.

Now seeing as I can see you failed to grasp my point, here it is. I say that we can safely assume that a Table Top conversion video game would be a small market, therefore mechanics that appeal to the wider video game market is preferable. My opinion is that too much reliance on randomness is frustrating in a video game, making one think it's rigged because programmed randomness doesn't feel as legitimate as a dice roll. I believe this is shared by a wide base. Secondly, it's a fact that the devs already created a system that matches the video game format, therefore it is an easier task to remake and improve those mechanics, rather than design an entirely new system, one I don't think has a high appeal.

last edited by DeTortor

@detortor said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

Now seeing as I can see you failed to grasp my point, here it is. I say that we can safely assume that a Table Top conversion video game would be a small market, therefore mechanics that appeal to the wider video game market is preferable. My opinion is that too much reliance on randomness is frustrating in a video game, making one think it's rigged because programmed randomness doesn't feel as legitimate as a dice roll. I believe this is shared by a wide base. Secondly, it's a fact that the devs already created a system that matches the video game format, therefore it is an easier task to remake and improve those mechanics, rather than design an entirely new system, one I don't think has a high appeal.

This is a fair point, but not necessarily a self-evident truth. They tried doing the "appeal to the mainstream market" with various real-time modes for previous iterations of Blood Bowl - it was a failure. There's a reason they scrapped it entirely for Blood Bowl 2. So yes, other games may have more users than, say, Mordheim - but it's not clear why. For XCom, for example, it already has a fanbase and is an established title as a video game - Mordheim had neither.

Potentially alienating your existing (if admittedly niche) fanbase while trying to break into the mainstream market* can be very risky.

*which is definitely bigger, no debate necessary there

@deyjarl said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

your own dishonest logic.
So put up or shut up
So if you continue to want to be that dishonest, go right ahead, but most people are going to see your dishonesty pretty clearly.
I thought the other guy was dishonest in his refusal admit he was wrong on the rules. You are no better in your dishonesty.

Come on man, your points are not without merit (certainly worthy of a discussion), but no-one is going to want to interact with you if you act like this. We're all here because we love Necromunda and are stoked it's being turned into a video game - let's keep it friendly like the gaming clubs of old!

@mekelan said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

@detortor said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

Now seeing as I can see you failed to grasp my point, here it is. I say that we can safely assume that a Table Top conversion video game would be a small market, therefore mechanics that appeal to the wider video game market is preferable. My opinion is that too much reliance on randomness is frustrating in a video game, making one think it's rigged because programmed randomness doesn't feel as legitimate as a dice roll. I believe this is shared by a wide base. Secondly, it's a fact that the devs already created a system that matches the video game format, therefore it is an easier task to remake and improve those mechanics, rather than design an entirely new system, one I don't think has a high appeal.

This is a fair point, but not necessarily a self-evident truth. They tried doing the "appeal to the mainstream market" with various real-time modes for previous iterations of Blood Bowl - it was a failure. There's a reason they scrapped it entirely for Blood Bowl 2. So yes, other games may have more users than, say, Mordheim - but it's not clear why. For XCom, for example, it already has a fanbase and is an established title as a video game - Mordheim had neither.

Potentially alienating your existing (if admittedly niche) fanbase while trying to break into the mainstream market* can be very risky.

*which is definitely bigger, no debate necessary there

So yeah, the only part I mean to claim as self-evident is the video game market as a whole is bigger than the TT market, and of course Table Top players that play video games is going to be even smaller. Now I will have to say that Blood Bowl is an oddity, the whole concept of literal Fantasy Football is by nature going to be very niche, which is why I don't criticize it for being a more straight up TT conversion, it was never going to have mass appeal. Necromunda I believe is different. Sure Warhammer 40k is itself a niche, but there's so much going on I literally feel like I should have a Power Point demonstration to explain the setting to people who aren't fans. It's not that I don't think that Grimdark science fiction doesn't have wider appeal, it's just people get lost trying to understand the sheer breadth of lore. Which brings us to Necromunda, I believe it makes a great entry point into the lore. Gangers in a dystopian mega city is a more familiar and relatable concept that just seems more Warhammer noob friendly, it can easily be something a non-Warhammer 40k fan would look at and say "that looks cool" and become a 40k fan. That's how I got into it, I found Dawn of War 1 in the store and then later figured out there was way more to the story.

Terrain also makes a huge difference between this game and Blood Bowl. Strategy and tactics were always going to be limited on a football field, there's not really room to maneuver, so the randomness is a more justifiable equalizer. To a lesser extent Mordhiem, but very much so in Necromunda, tactics and utilizing the environment come into play, thus things represented in dice rolls on the board can be implemented as tactical choices rather than random chance.

Now I don't really think simply using more video game like mechanics to appeal to a wider audience will in of itself alienate TT fans. Sure there appears to be at least a few here that appear to be upset about/didn't like Mordhiem's mechanics, but for one it's not really representative at this point, frankly it sounds like they still bought the game, and most importantly if it plays well how upset can you reasonably be? They certainly should and are going to try to improve the mechanics they have, but unless they do something drastic I really don't think alienation is a big risk. Honestly I can hardly imagine what they could design that would truly betray the spirit of the game, but it would have to go beyond simply designing mechanics that don't exactly replicate how table top plays.

last edited by DeTortor

@mekelan said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

Come on man, your points are not without merit (certainly worthy of a discussion), but no-one is going to want to interact with you if you act like this.

As opposed to someone who lies like he has. He still won't admit he has zero data to support his claim, and his trying to generalize the whole video game market as the audience for clearly niche games is dishonest and hypocritical on his part. As opposed to be calling him on his bs.

And you really shouldn't presume to speak for others. Some prefer honesty over those who twist things like him. I don't put up with those who lie. And his speculation is dishonest.

Sadly they didn't add a block function to their forums so neither he or I would have to deal with each other.

last edited by Deyjarl

@deyjarl said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

@mekelan said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

Come on man, your points are not without merit (certainly worthy of a discussion), but no-one is going to want to interact with you if you act like this.

As opposed to someone who lies like he has. He still won't admit he has zero data to support his claim, and his trying to generalize the whole video game market as the audience for clearly niche games is dishonest and hypocritical on his part. As opposed to be calling him on his bs.

And you really shouldn't presume to speak for others. Some prefer honesty over those who twist things like him. I don't put up with those who lie. And his speculation is dishonest.

Sadly they didn't add a block function to their forums so neither he or I would have to deal with each other.

Jesus Christ dude, get over yourself. I'm not lying you psycho, we disagree. It's a pretty common thing.

last edited by DeTortor

I really do not understand why this has gotten hostile. Can we take a breath and remember we're discussing game mechanics and these discussions probably aren't even being read by people making the decisions. Relax.

@deyjarl said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

Sadly they didn't add a block function to their forums so neither he or I would have to deal with each other.

Yeah, sadly indeed, as I think it's pretty clear any interaction with you is going to be more trouble that it's worth. Sad thing us, I'm probably leaning towards agreeing with you on the matter at hand, but I don't have the time nor inclination to deal with that kind of overly hostile debating. Not that I expect you'll care, you seem to have worked yourself into some kind of righteous fury, so - good luck with that.

Well, discussions have seemed to have stalled. I'd like to apologize for my contribution to the poor atmosphere. Generally I'm perfectly fine discussing ideas with those who disagree with me, it allows for a broader perspective.

As for the Necromunda should be more like TT idea, I'm not a fan of the single wound idea that I've heard, I think it would make matches too quick and to dependent on random chance, which is something I feel gives the impression of unfairness in the video game setting. However, perhaps critical hits could play a bigger role, or they could factor in hit location, sort of like Fallout Vats, except perhaps not actually selecting where to aim(or maybe yes), and damage is scaled based on where it hits. Could also allow for some cool gore options where the injury rolls can be represented in game, like losing an arm can actually be caused by a bad finishing hit to the arm and actually blow it off.

But besides a single wound system, how else could TT be better represented in game?

Don't think too much about that, DeTortor. Once thing sure about life is that you can't please everybody, and if you try, you will please nobody. It's better to stick to your opinion and try to have more people give good criticism to help you perfect said idea.

That aside, one thing i really want to see is that certain gangs have access to certain skill classes/tress and others don't, like in the Tabletop. I already know the different stat cap on henchmen and heroes already kinda fulfills that role, but i think it's better to bar certain gangs from learning certain skills (for example, Goliaths shouldn't have access to Agility skills but they would have access to Strength skills). This would actually help a lot giving all gangs a different feel aside from equipment and aesthetics.

And also, something i kinda want is the grenade/flamer hit chance on enemies that are partially in the hit radius. In TT, if an enemy was partially covered by the blast radius of a grenade, that enemy had a 50% chance of being hit while not being safe damage.

Definately going to agree there, Skills should be gated by House like on TT, with different Skills for Leaders, Heavies, and Gangers. Mordhiem was too general with Skills, units and factions didn't really feel unique other than looks. Here they can improve and have real mechanical differences. Currently I'm envisioning a counter agility skill with a Goliath giving someone a deadly, spine crushing bear hug.

Something that's more spirit of the TT than mechanics would be your idea of persistant enemies. It would be way cooler if instead of all non-campaign Gangs being random, have a roster of persistant foes. It would create an implied story on top of whatever campaign story there is. That would allow for rivalries and personal narratives. Like say some gang gets on your bad side because they kill your favorite Ganger, then you can start targeting them. It'd be even better if you can wipe out a gang by taking enough of their territory and killing enough of their members. And after you destroy them, just have them replaced by a new randomly generated gang. That would also allow another TT feature to be added, Hatred.

@detortor said in Things I hope they don't bring from their Mordheim:

Something that's more spirit of the TT than mechanics would be your idea of persistant enemies. It would be way cooler if instead of all non-campaign Gangs being random, have a roster of persistant foes. It would create an implied story on top of whatever campaign story there is. That would allow for rivalries and personal narratives. Like say some gang gets on your bad side because they kill your favorite Ganger, then you can start targeting them. It'd be even better if you can wipe out a gang by taking enough of their territory and killing enough of their members. And after you destroy them, just have them replaced by a new randomly generated gang. That would also allow another TT feature to be added, Hatred.

I Also think it's a great idea. Not only if they decide to bring back Hatred as a mechanic or to give the player the feel they have a feud with certain gang, but also for the sake of balance. The fact that the AI always rolled fresh warbands made the game horribly frustrating and unsatisfying, while having permanent gangs with a permanent roster would be very interesting and at the same time, for the balance of the game.

For example, if our gang deals a crippling blow to an enemy gang, the next time you fight them they might all have some sort of injury and they would fight with worse gear. As well, i guess we all want to see if an enemy ganger becomes a nemesis: a lucky ganger that no matter how many times gets pummeled into the ground always comes back to fight us. That would be amazing

Yeah I think persistent enemies is one of the most asked-for features (or, to frame it as per the topic): Mordheim's auto-generated enemies, while convenient, killed a lot of the immersion in single-player campaigns. The relatively small pool of enemy looks and name options didn't help, either, as you kept running into carbon copies of previous enemies. I am not sure if the intention was that this would feel a bit like persistent enemies, but in practice it didn't.

Yes, it wasn't very good. I mean, it's expected that in Mordheim there are hundreds of warbands, but i would expect to run again into some of the ones i fough time ago and see them all grizzled up fighting with what they could get their hands o and with a few new faces.

I think it would be better to have in Necromunda to fight off 5 different gangs (one of each house) while you play with the gang of the remaining house. The other gangs have set rosters and equipment and they might lose them in the coming fights. That would give the game a better overall balance in which if you deal a crippling blow to an enemy gang it will take time for them to be up to par with you.

Being ignorant of the tech side, I'd say one for each House would be a minimum, but such a number would kinda do the opposite and make the Underhive seem pretty depopulated, when the whole hundreds of gangs most likely applies as well. More the better, to a certain extent, but what seems more feasible is a mixed model. Have at least one persistent gang for each house, then also have randomly generated gangs. You want a large roster of enemies for a couple reasons. One is also for immersion, if .01% of the Hive of billions goes to the Underhive, that's still tens of thousands potentially, so running into the same groups too often is a bit off as well. Also it's a matter of balance and what I can only describe as the meta. If there's only 6 enemies at a time, you're going to learn their makeup, their skills, etc, you'll be able to build your gang specifically to counter certain gangs, maybe even have loadouts for each one. Even if not it will get repetitive if there's too few enemy gangs, and it could easily come to the point where the exisiting enemy gangs just aren't a challenge to you because you've mauled them too badly for them to be much of a threat(and some people may purposefully keep it that way). Thus a good system I believe would do both, with as many peristant foes as possible.

I would also like to point out that the idea of persistent enemy gangs warrants its own thread to maximize chances of it being noticed.

In that, you have a point. Only 5 enemy gangs is too low and specially if you wipe some of them out (taking their whole turf). I think the game should have some sort of curve where in the beginning you fight gangs with little turf, but still up to fight and after enough time and credits, other powerful gangs will start attacking you since they see you as a threat.

I think that way it would be a nice way of implementing the whole "permanent enemies" thing.

Please remember that for some of us here it wasn't just "their Mordheim", it was "our Mordheim", each and every aspect of which we hold dear. It's so heartbreaking to even think of the funniest jump/climb mechanic removed entirely. I and those who share my opinion would love to see those fun and cruel mechanics expanded even further, not reverted. Beautiful design, interesting combat mechanics and the unforgiving but fun and thrilling randomness of the City of the Damned (climbing, crits, injuries etc.) - this is what made your game special.

last edited by Vile Beggar

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