Pressing vehicles into a specific role... .

one thing i am concerned about is that it seems, from what i have seen in the vehicles previews, that vehicles are again or now more than ever pressed into some specific roles. the vehicles previews call them that way even. the c256 RWD truck seem to be supposed to drive the long logs while other more capable 6x6 trucks can not take long logs and are called support trucks? the 535 can not take medium or long now, what is up with that?(edit: my bad it can take 2+2 which is odd combo)

i kinda dont think it is a good idea to limit vehicles to certain things just because, let all trucks drive all loads where it makes sense. maybe no long logs on the b130 but you know what i mean.
there need to be a sufficient amount of trailers for every truck, spintires had the same problem and i guess this was intentional.

i hope this shoehorning of trucks into specific roles is not intentional but a mere accident, and maybe over time we get more trailers for all trucks.
for spintires there are quiet some trailer mods on the workshop, so you can drive every load with almost every truck. that is what the goal should be here too i feel, cause nothing else makes sense in my eyes.

last edited by Actionjackson

well these are the new vehicles being shown. there is still the original vehicle line up, but my question is did they dedicate the original vehicles as well or are the original vehicles/attachments still going to be the same as before? the wording is kind of vague.

Announcement Post

last edited by 8up local

this is a good question, did they take away long log trailer from c255? i have no clue but i hope they did not. however the 535 is a stock vehicle and it can no longer take log cart+med trailer/long trailer, just carriage+carriage trailer, so it was changed.
maybe i am overly skeptic but i fear someone is in love with his great ideas which noone asked for, ...again. i wonder who that could be 😛

but again i still hope this is but an accident and everything is fine. i do hope we see that sortimentovoz(or what it was called) trailer, it was in game once but take out again, for the medium C type trucks.
or something similar, just some options to go with. cant be that hard to do rly.

last edited by Actionjackson

if you were to take some real world logic, you could say that the KrAZ-256 rear bogie probably has a higher load rating than the KrAZ-255, because one is designed with single tyres in mind for off-road use, the other is designed with duel tyres in mind for carrying heavier loads for example as a tipper/dump truck or other "site" type uses with a bias towards road use, rather than a bias to off-road use.

generally speaking IRL 4x2/4x4/6x4/6x6/8x4/8x6/8x8 etc trucks with a road bias thus running duel rear tyres ran as e.g. tippers/dumpers and other site trucks have more load potential than their off-road bias counterparts that run single tyres on all axles, the exception being once you start getting to the size of truck that run on 25in or larger wheels that use tyres from wheel-loaders and articulated dump-trucks and other plant equipment, like oil-field trucks and some heavy haulage trucks, which usually use exceptions to run on the road because their physical size is outside the normal bounds of road-trucks, else their weight-limits are outside the normal bounds of road trucks, thus use derogations of law to operate.

however all that said, from looking at some of the press copy streams on twitch, the C-255 dose indeed have the body/trailer combination (as per the original ST) to carry long logs, but as to if that will change by release on the 31st, I don't know.

real world logic is nice and good but the game doesnt have too much to do with real world so i dont think this applies here.
quiet some shortcuts have been made, compared to IRL.

anyways, new trailer went up, it shows c255 with long logs. i am happy, hope it still has the road wheels too so i dont run out of fuel that quick in hardcore mode 😛

the main attraction of the game is its real world setting, theme, mechanics, etc. they modeled more real world systems like physics, water current, etc than most games. that argument of "it's a game, not real world....therefore we should add/should not add so and so" is completely pointless. if you allow that logic, you cannot logically argue against adding lesbian transexual attack helicopters.

last edited by clarionhorn

i am all for realistic, but in the right places;

-realistic gearbox? sure! do away with automatic gears on theses 60ies trucks! thats casual BS anyways.

-realistic differential lock damage model that is not dependent on lack of tire slip and does not damage the motor when you get damage, like locks damage should be separate from truck damage. so i can have fully damaged locks but otherwise undamaged truck.

-double winch? sure!

-more possible ground conditions than "hard" and "soft"? sure, i am all for it!

but i am not for limiting trucks to take only certain attachments and trailers just because some vague guesstimation or artificial gameplay ideas. when you look up the youtube videos or pictures of the vehicles in question, you see they are more versatile than they are in game right now.
for example; the 7310 is no rescue truck but it has flatbed type trailers in reality to drive whatever loads.
the gaz66 should have a carriage to drive 2 points.
the kamaz and ural typ trucks should be able to take the long log trailer like in reality.

its just someone decided to not give it to them in the game for whatever reason, and i am against that. i think noone here is against more options for every truck to drive the logs. if someone is against that it would be odd to say the least 😉

maybe its more clear what i want now... .

last edited by Actionjackson

well one thing is for sure, they need to look at some of these mod creators and take some notes on what and how they have been doing things. let's face it, they (game devs) do an ok job at creating things, but they could do better imo. now i do understand they were under a deadline for the game so they could not spend as much time as the mod community would have, but still they need to take a look at what some of those in the community have done and can do.

last edited by 8up local

I kinda like the idea of certain trucks able to do certain things that the others cant, such as this truck can only do short but this bigger one can carry medium or long logs or maybe only this truck can carry fuel in a big tank. or like only this simi truck can use simi trailers, but others cant, and just so happens that the simi truck you got sucks at driving offroad, so its better to just do 2 tripswith a more capable offroading vehicle.

I also think that the little upgradedblue uaz should be able to carry around a little trailer that either can have a fuel tank in or one garage point or another one with a bunch of repair points. I just think that you know you just unlocked it and the normal one doesent have and trailer but the better blue one does, to make itmore usefull of your long time to get it.

@asherh said in Pressing vehicles into a specific role... .:

I kinda like the idea of certain trucks able to do certain things that the others cant, such as this truck can only do short but this bigger one can carry medium or long logs or maybe only this truck can carry fuel in a big tank. or like only this simi truck can use simi trailers, but others cant, and just so happens that the simi truck you got sucks at driving offroad, so its better to just do 2 tripswith a more capable offroading vehicle.

you know in theory it could be good, but in reality you get bored doing the same stuff over and over.
lets compare it to original spintires.
you could complete each ST map, casual and hardcore mode, without ever touching a fuel truck. so now we have a dedicated fuel truck, but it is useless as it can not take wood, it will barely be used unless the maps are drastically changed so you need more fuel.

than there is that one truck that can take wood on this map, and you have to use it(like 4320 in hardcore in spintires, you needed that crane for medium load no other 6x6 truck could take) and after 50, 100, 150 times driving it you may wish for another truck to drive the same load.

even if options seem redundant now, they may be much more desired later on. thats how i see it. i often wished there is a long log combo for 6522 or 4320 while driving the long logs with c255 for the 576th time. i am not asking for this just for fun, there is a reasoning behind it

I think it's a bit of a realism vs video game design thing... By limiting options it allows ways to artificially force some strategy or complication/difficulty into the game.

I think that decision is a bit misled though... I think most of us who are buying this game are buying it for the eclectic setting and vehicles, the mud and terrain deformation, physics, and the realism. For us, just navigating through the forests and swamps in the variety of vehicles is the challenge that is wanted, and we don't want arbitrary limitations forcing us to use certain vehicles.

This community is pretty smart and with the realism angle the game goes for it encourages players to make efficient and/or low-risk decisions... While of course there will be people who attempt to challenge themselves by using inefficient vehicles, most of the community will likely figure out alternatives and several of the dedicated vehicles will end up not being touched.

The fun of the initial added challenge of figuring out which vehicles to use and how to adapt them will eventually disappear as we figure it out, and once we have figure out the "magic combo" it will cost us the long-run freedom of choice which will damage replay-ability.

I played this a bit on the PC and found replaying levels with different vehicles to be interesting and quite fun. Sure, using one of the 8x8 to deliver logs made getting through the mud much easier, but it made navigating some of the narrower parts of trails harder, so it wasn't as "overpowered" as it seemed it might be, and it opened up some routes that I didn't want to take with a 6x6 on the previous playthrough. I also loved using some of the modded vehicles, like attempting to deliver all the logs using the B-66 with a small carriage and a small carriage trailer... It didn't cope with the load as well as one of the various 6x6 would have, but that was a fun challenge.

Personally, I want the challenge to come from deeper mud, narrower trails, more rocks, steeper hills, longer distances to travel, more convoluted routes to explore... not from the fact that the long log trailer doesn't work with my specific 6x6 for no apparent reason. Unless it is real-world impossible, let us hook whatever to whichever truck, regardless of how good or bad of a combo it may be and how easy or hard it would make the objective. Let us choose when and how we challenge ourselves with our own vehicle decisions.

In the long run, arbitrary limitations will hurt this game rather than help it.

last edited by -Morbid-

@morbid ---- yes +1

@actionjackson said in Pressing vehicles into a specific role... .:

i am all for realistic, but in the right places;

-realistic gearbox? sure! do away with automatic gears on theses 60ies trucks! thats casual BS anyways.

-realistic differential lock damage model that is not dependent on lack of tire slip and does not damage the motor when you get damage, like locks damage should be separate from truck damage. so i can have fully damaged locks but otherwise undamaged truck.

-double winch? sure!

-more possible ground conditions than "hard" and "soft"? sure, i am all for it!

but i am not for limiting trucks to take only certain attachments and trailers just because some vague guesstimation or artificial gameplay ideas. when you look up the youtube videos or pictures of the vehicles in question, you see they are more versatile than they are in game right now.
for example; the 7310 is no rescue truck but it has flatbed type trailers in reality to drive whatever loads.
the gaz66 should have a carriage to drive 2 points.
the kamaz and ural typ trucks should be able to take the long log trailer like in reality.

its just someone decided to not give it to them in the game for whatever reason, and i am against that. i think noone here is against more options for every truck to drive the logs. if someone is against that it would be odd to say the least 😉

maybe its more clear what i want now... .

Ok lets start with gearboxes, do you know that semi-automatic gearboxes in trucks was a thing in the 1960’s, and while it may not be specific to most of the trucks in-game, but given that the game must be able to be played by people with nothing more than a keyboard, as not everyone can afford the relative luxury of e.g. a g25/g27 etc wheel, so some compromise has to be made.

I can see you don't know much about transmission windup, and haven't seen what happens when a fount prop-shaft fails at speed on a lorry and how it can scrap your engine, gearbox, chassis and 1 or more axles as it flails around, and if your lucky and doesn't enter the cab floor too, it can literally turn your lorry to nothing but scrap or give you a very large repair bill, this is given the front fount prop-shaft is normally the weak-point in the system, because the front axle when the truck is unloaded or loaded often has a different effective tyre radius, while the rear prop-shaft is the permanent drive shaft designed to drive two axles with much more imposed load on them.

Double which, sure very common on SUV, forestry skidders and recovery vehicles where they can be operated individually at the same time, but not so common on military cargo trucks, where often they are PTO driven winch mounted mid-chassis, with the winch rope exiting the rear roller fairlead and then doubled back running down the one of the chassis rails to the front roller fairlead, giving the ability to do a single-line pull from the front, and a double-line pull from the rear using a snatch-block, which doubles the pull from the rear, thus encourages you to pull yourself out the way you entered which is often easer, it is also the preferred end when you are recovering some other vehicle that is stuck.

Likewise I can see you have never bothered to look up the gross weights of some of the trucks, so you could have an informed opinion as to why maybe some don't have the long log trailers, and maybe realise that not all semi trailers have the same load carrying capabilities, and not all kamaz, Ural etc are created equal in much the same way as not all trucks from western manufactures are created equal even though to the untrained eye may look exactly the same and be part of the same range just with different modal numbers to tell then apart.
e.g. the KrAZ-255 has a notably higher gross weight than the kamaz 4310, Ural 375 & 4320, and well the gaz-66 is hardly what you would call a load carrying vehicle for even small loads of logs, if you have any appreciation for the weight of timber.

Sure its clear what you want from your position of ignorance, but not everyone is in the same position as you.

last edited by b101uk

Ok lets start with gearboxes, do you know that semi-automatic gearboxes in trucks was a thing in the 1960’s, and while it may not be specific to most of the trucks in-game, but given that the game must be able to be played by people with nothing more than a keyboard, as not everyone can afford the relative luxury of e.g. a g25/g27 etc wheel, so some compromise has to be made.

I would think everyone who has a keyboard also has a mouse, and if the shifting works like the manual gears in hardcore mode, just with more gears, i would enjoy that. i do not ask for a recreation of a real gearbox. the effect should be that the driving is more engaging, and less just pressing W and looking at the screen.

I can see you don't know much about transmission windup, and haven't seen what happens when a fount prop-shaft fails at speed on a lorry and how it can scrap your engine, gearbox, chassis and 1 or more axles as it flails around, and if your lucky and doesn't enter the cab floor too, it can literally turn your lorry to nothing but scrap or give you a very large repair bill, this is given the front fount prop-shaft is normally the weak-point in the system, because the front axle when the truck is unloaded or loaded often has a different effective tyre radius, while the rear prop-shaft is the permanent drive shaft designed to drive two axles with much more imposed load on them.

i think not many persons know this or seen this, i have never seen this ovcourse, yet the generalization of difflock damage = damage to the whole truck is not elegant if you like that better. you seem to rly like painfully realistic and you would have to agree that not every lock damage is a catastrophic truck failure.

about the double winch, you know i am no native english speaker and my english is not allways the best.
when people say double winch in the spintires community they commonly refer to the winch just acting like a tow cable more or less, where you simply hook up 2 trucks in order to pull out a 3rd if 1 does not make it happen. that does not need any winch at all, ppl just call it like that. i hope you understand what i mean.

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thats what i see, so i though it is reasonable what i ask for and its nice for gameplay on top. the gaz66 has a carriage but i did not find any pic with it haveing logs on it. but one does not have to get anal with the weight, for gameplay sake it would be fun.

in the beginning i was wondering why you are mostly against all this but now i see and understand. you would like this to be a study sim type game, where each truck is recreated painfully to the last detail and everything is as realistic as possible.
while i would enjoy something like this, spintires is everything but this in my view, it goes for realism but makes many shortcuts for gameplay.
i think we wont be able to agree here, we want two different things and i guess neither of us will get exactly what he wants 😛

@Actionjackson :
I'm with you, ST is a game and from what we've learned, it works the best with as much options and freedom for the player as possible.

The problem with the missing addons will be solved hours after release, the workshop will be full with the default trucks that have all the addons available- that is super easy to fix.
Apart from that, obviously the 6x6 and 8x8 trucks now can load short logs with 3 Points instead of 2. So the MAZ535 and other can still carry 6 Points at the same time.

For the damage, I think the system is fine. In the end it doesn't matter if an axle has broken, engine sucked in water, transmission exploded or what ever- the truck won't drive anymore and has to be repaired.

@dereggen said in Pressing vehicles into a specific role... .:

For the damage, I think the system is fine. In the end it doesn't matter if an axle has broken, engine sucked in water, transmission exploded or what ever- the truck won't drive anymore and has to be repaired.

Actually, you can still drive with a damaged axle, a wheel, an engine element or something else, it will just be much more difficult, and it's an interesting challenge. You know, deliver logs to a sawmill before the damaged wheel falls off or the engine overheats. For example, in Beamng.drive you can damage a vehicle and its components in many ways, but the car can still move although something may stop working completely in a moment. I would like to get rid of the system of "life points" and in future see such complex opportunities in Mudrunner.

last edited by knight25
Community Moderator - Spintires

BeamNG is putting this a bit too far, but I agree, a bit more complex solution than just "healthbar" could be nice.
For example difflocks should stop working after, lets say, 3rd abusing. Not all of them, but that one specific.
There has to be SOME punishment for abusing difflock, slightly worse maneuverability is not good enough, I don't want to end with old ST behaviour "start engine, lock diffs, there we go"...

The problem with the missing addons will be solved hours after release, the workshop will be full with the default trucks that have all the addons available- that is super easy to fix.

yea i know 😃 life is dandy on the PC side of the world, isnt it? 😃
i just thought and hoped something like that as stock content would be a "nobrainer".

Apart from that, obviously the 6x6 and 8x8 trucks now can load short logs with 3 Points instead of 2.

real? is that true? how is that obvious, where you see that? well that is a odd choice if that is true, it only changes the times you have to go with smal logs, 3 times insted of 4.
if you bring medium or long logs to the objective it makes no difference if it is 2 or 3 points.

There has to be SOME punishment for abusing difflock, slightly worse maneuverability is not good enough, I don't want to end with old ST behaviour "start engine, lock diffs, there we go"...

oh yes there has to be, i am all for it but that lock damage system as its now piss me off a lot.

on very uneven hard packed roads you get the worst of it, that Q on Q off minigame where you spam Q every few seconds in order to move forward without the locks exploding but not coming to a halt cause one wheel per axle is mostly in the air and you have no forward drive at all without the locks, but as soon as you make them on they start to go red as you have no tire slip, which is what governs all this.
no tire slip, locks start to glow. no matter if i go on concrete or grass, around a bend or straight, it does not care its all about tire slip.

now if @b101uk tells me that is realistic, i bow to his superior knowledge about this things and will accept that, but to me this system feel very gamey and makes me quiet mad at times 😃
rly dont get me started on the lock damage, i can rage about it quiet a bit 😃

There are some gameplay videos on Youtube, some are from the press version and some from the technical test.
I like to have 3 points on the bigger (K, C and D) and 2 on the smaller (B) trucks.

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