Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again :-(

My Skaven team with TV 1380 fought just now in the Championship ladder X. It's a real struggle since you don't know what you gonna face.

I met a coach with about equal loss win ratio and 42 matches played. Chaos dwarfs just made to impact as much dmg as possible. He have no chance in the tournament with his record. He was just there to kill players of others. I got 400 in inducements.

After spending all three apos (death on my agi 5 gutter, 2 serious injuries) in turn 5! I had to just concede ๐Ÿ˜ž

It's just sad this thing is possible, and takes all the fun away from my struggle to get a ok record. Just really really sad. I had already used many hours to get a ok start!

I tried to score fast and avoid him, but unlucky my agi 5 gutter failed to make the catch and all hell broke loose ๐Ÿ˜ž

This is the team I faced (link), he had taken only 1 reroll and kept to 11 players, just to get teams like me to kill. 19 losses and 17 wins I think he had... and just waiting to ruin other coaches of lower TV.

8 mighty blows, 5 claws, 2 pile on, 6 tackle (dwarfs), 3 dirty players. 10 of the 11 with block. And all this below 1800 TV. Taking Morg'n'thor would not have helped at all, the claws and stuff would have taken him off pitch in minutes. The TV difference of 400 could not been fixed by the inducements vs this team. I took 2 apos, 2 budweiser and 1 extra lineman. No use of taking chef since he only had 1 reroll and was set to kill.

https://imgur.com/a/SkInw

Why grind your team and upgrade stadium to level 4, just to get a TV "reward" of toxic killing of the players you have grinded for days/weeks.... no wonder coaches are leaving the game! Why can't we have an official Cabalvision resurrection leauge with spp and money gain?? I really don't get it!

last edited by Hotdogchef

That's part of the game....ita called Blood Bowl.

Try not to make friends with your players and only use apothecaries on stat downs and deaths. Don't mark him. You quit turn 5 so there needs to be a whole other league where you don't lose players? I disagree and the game is fine as is. Not everyone is going to win

@hotdogchef said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again ๐Ÿ˜ž:

Why can't we have an official Cabalvision resurrection leauge with spp and money gain?? I really don't get it!

A question many of us have asked for many years, and which has completely arbitrary obstacles thrown in its way any time things get closer to making that a reality.

The problem, I believe, is that Cyanide and Focus try to keep their fingers on the pulse of the playerbase by picking long-time BB players and asking their opinions, and generalizing those to everybody. Long-time players often hate the idea of rez, or cannot wrap their heads around rez + development, and violently oppose its existence. Likewise, the smarter ones know that an official rez + development league would likely empty COL, and possibly even CCL, of a large portion of their players and teams, and don't want to end up without people to stomp on.

What about introducing a limit of losses for Championship ladder? For example โ€“ you can't play any more in the league if you lost 5 times. Your result becomes fixed and that's it.

@imploded said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again ๐Ÿ˜ž:

What about introducing a limit of losses for Championship ladder? For example โ€“ you can't play any more in the league if you lost 5 times. Your result becomes fixed and that's it.

Limited playerbase is already an issue. Stopping people from playing won't help at all.

As I see it, that's not going to stop people from playing. That will stop people from developing teams that are only good for griefing.

The point of Championship ladder is getting to the top, right? After a certain number of losses a team usually loses any chances to get to the top and can only grief other players. This will stop people from playing in the long run.

If 5 losses is too low, what about 10 losses? Besides, a coach with 5/10 losses may continue playing in the league with a new team.

I really like your idea Imploded. I suggest to set the losses to 12 or 13 for the pricepool championship only. Based on the ladder for the championship and my experience. Two teams in current top 50 have 10 losses. 12 or 13 would be a good number. This would have stopped the guy, at least pretty much, that just tried to ruin the championship for me and others that want to get a good record in the major championship.

VoodooMike: This is the best thing you ever written on this forum. Thank you man. Yes why not call it a "Blood bowl light official Cabalvision tournament".

last edited by Hotdogchef

Oh, I see. How would you actually implement this? Bearing in mind the manual nature of moderation I suspect it wouldn't be enforceable.

@dode74 said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again ๐Ÿ˜ž:

Oh, I see. How would you actually implement this? Bearing in mind the manual nature of moderation I suspect it wouldn't be enforceable.

Ok, is one of your 5(?) accounts set just to make a team to kill stomp teams in the championship? Yes or no? and, you ever have run into the 19 losses kill stomp chaos dwarfs in the championship yourself??

last edited by Hotdogchef

No, and no. Not that either question is relevant.

But that doesn't answer the question: how would this be implemented?

@dode74 said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again ๐Ÿ˜ž:

No, and no. Not that either question is relevant.

But that doesn't answer the question: how would this be implemented?

The question is relevant since it seems to me a group (large?) of blood bowl gamers here enjoy to make team to stomp/kill other coaches teams. At least for the main pricepool championship steps should be taken to reduce this. It's a lottery now to get your 1380 TV blood stomped with guys like that out there...

I am not a programmer. But is it impossible to program this? I can't believe it is...

Cyanide might be able to do something, but I very much doubt that will happen. Given that we have to work within current limitations. So, again, how would this be implemented?

At least for the main pricepool championship steps should be taken to reduce this.

Why? It's part of the game. It's a part that you don't like, sure, but it is undoubtedly part of it.

PS - prizepool, not pricepool. Intended as help rather than criticism.

@imploded said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again ๐Ÿ˜ž:

What about introducing a limit of losses for Championship ladder? For example โ€“ you can't play any more in the league if you lost 5 times. Your result becomes fixed and that's it.

This assumes that everyone who plays in CCL is trying to qualify for the end tournament. Given how few teams make it into that I'd say a whole lot of people in CCL play just to get better games with the lower rate of concession, and where they're not constantly facing highly developed teams with their fresh team (assuming they're not starting mid-to-end season).

It'd certainly make CCL a feast or famine environment for t3 teams whose win rates are expected to be low - they'd normally be able to make up for early losses with future wins, but locking them in at a certain number of losses would return CCL to the WC days where you need to get your string of wins in a row at the start and just re-make the team over and over until you get that string of wins...

@imploded said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again ๐Ÿ˜ž:

As I see it, that's not going to stop people from playing. That will stop people from developing teams that are only good for griefing.

I think it's a clumsy and invasive way of dealing with bash teams. People don't love starting over - if you look at one of the most repeated requests/demands related to CCL its people wanting their teams to carry over between seasons. If those folks take exception to having to start over every 6 weeks, imagine telling them they have to start over every 5 losses.

What it really boils down to is that to combat small-scale attrition you'd be introducing a form of large-scale attrition... 5 matches against chaos can kill a few players, 5 matches against skaven can kill your entire team. I'm not sure fighting fire with an even bigger fire is the best way to deal with what is only very subjectively a botherin CCL.

@hotdogchef said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again ๐Ÿ˜ž:

I am not a programmer. But is it impossible to program this? I can't believe it is...

The moderation of CCL is done manually. If you actually expect Cyanide to get involved and modify the game at a programming level, you'd best be talking about something world changing, not some minor slap-patch with questionable benefits. Even then it's a bit like getting a whale to do seaworld tricks... nice in theory, not so likely in practice.

@imploded said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again ๐Ÿ˜ž:

The point of Championship ladder is getting to the top, right? After a certain number of losses a team usually loses any chances to get to the top and can only grief other players. This will stop people from playing in the long run.

That's one point of view. Somebody else could say that this team just earns SPPs the most efficient way bash team can do it (from CAS), and tries to limits development of its arch-nemesis type of teams - agility teams - to have chance to win in the next season (assuming it's perpetual environment). Then, if Aging is added to the mix, which introduces some attrition to teams which are not susceptible to attrition that much through injuries/deaths, it should work just fine. In newer ruleset there is a Redrafting which plays the same role as Aging in BB2, btw, so it seems like this approach is the new reality chosen by GW to resolve some perpetual environment issues.

last edited by Mori-Mori

@imploded said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again ๐Ÿ˜ž:

The point of Championship ladder is getting to the top, right?

No. It has multiple purposes, one of which is to provide a place where there are fewer concessions. People play there for all sorts of reasons, not just to qualify.

Another thing that puts me a bit off here is that it's a Skaven's coach who rises the issue. It's almost as if a Dwarves's coach would start complaining he can't handle a ball like an elf ๐Ÿ™‚ Skaven are solid tier 1 team, they are among best teams in the whole BB (some people even think they are the best team of them all). Being a hybrid team, they are probably the most "bashy" hybrid team of them all, as they have access to mutations. It often can be seen how agility and other hybrid teams' coaches whine about Skaven causing them a lot of attrition ๐Ÿ˜‰ The only thing that stops them from dominating everybody else except may be some elves teams is that they are still quite squishy, i.e. that very attrition (both short-term and long-term) topic starter makes a problem from.

I also have some doubts in validity of whole premise that killer teams on themselves are that much of a discouragement to agile/hybrid teams comparing to regular bash teams aiming for winning a competition, and that putting a limit on number of matches you're allowed to lose actually solves anything. It's quite possible to build a killer team which will be quite successful at winning as well, it's in the core mechanics of the game - the less players your opponent has on the pitch, the easier for you to win. It what the balance between agility and bash teams is built around in BB, in the first place. I don't think attrition caused to your team by a coach who tries to win champ is that much different from attrition caused by those who try to cause attrition. They both have exactly the same tools at their disposal, the difference exists mostly in your mind.

last edited by Mori-Mori

This doesn't help either:

@hotdogchef said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again ๐Ÿ˜ž:

I met a coach with about equal loss win ratio and 42 matches played. Chaos dwarfs just made to impact as much dmg as possible. He have no chance in the tournament with his record. He was just there to kill players of others. I got 400 in inducements.
After spending all three apos (death on my agi 5 gutter, 2 serious injuries) in turn 5! I had to just concede ๐Ÿ˜ž

Spending 200k of inducements on apos instead of getting more tools to win the match bothers me even more. With such kind of mentality you probably shouldn't play agi/hybrid teams at all.. I still would like to know what makes you think the guy actually tried to grief you here? When you meet rats on the pitch, you crash them as bad as you can, even if you are an elf - it's an ancient, ubiquitously honored rule of BB, on par with beating crap out of Wardancers and Skinks. Especially Gutter-runners, you smash those buggers into oblivion on any possible occasion, unless you want to lose 5:2 in the end. So far, dorf coach hasn't done anything special, got a bit lucky, having removed 3 rats at turn 5 already, that's all. Could you perhaps share a replay of the match? I'm curious to look at it.

last edited by Mori-Mori

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again ๐Ÿ˜ž:

I don't think attrition caused to your team by a coach who tries to win champ is that much different from attrition caused by those who try to cause attrition. They both have exactly the same tools at their disposal, the difference exists mostly in your mind.

There is a difference. If a coach absolutely does not care about the ball but only plays to foul and kill โ€“ it is a different way of playing. This way, griefer coach can lose as many game as he pleases and invest only in destructive skills. Nothing stops him from losing several dozens games while destroying the teams that were unlucky to meet him. In a scheduled league there is a balance โ€“ if you don't care about the ball, your team will eventually be relegated. But in the championship ladder there are no negative consequences. There are only negative consequences for the coaches who are true to the spirit of the championship โ€“ the ones who are playing to win, not to grief.

Actually, this may become a popular strategy for coaches who already qualify for play-offs: create a team only to destroy, so that you could reduce the chances of other coaches to win. Let's wait and see.

There have been some discussions regarding long term attrition before, so may be something like this was already proposed, but if that attrition is such a big issue, may be capping it on per match basis could be a solution, at least as an optional feature for private leagues (not sure whether it's okay for CCL)? So, basically, everything will proceed as before, with coach using Apo during match to reroll some injuries/KOs, but at the end of the match, separately for each team, from a pool of all players who got permanent injuries of any type (including death), will be randomly selected say, just 2 of them who'll actually keep it, and the rest are considered recovered due to heroic acts of stadium's emergency team. Thus it effectively caps permanent injuries at "max 2 per match". I'm not a big fan of Rez and thus completely removing injuries from the game, that kills all the BB flavor.

last edited by Mori-Mori

@imploded said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again ๐Ÿ˜ž:

There is a difference. If a coach absolutely does not care about the ball but only plays to foul and kill โ€“ it is a different way of playing. This way, griefer coach can lose as many game as he pleases and invest only in destructive skills. Nothing stops him from losing several dozens games while destroying the teams that were unlucky to meet him.

Then again, how does it change tactics that much? Ideally, when playing agi or hybrid teams, you do all you can to prevent too much physical contact with a basher. You always keep distance limiting your "exposure" to his killers to 1 blitz per turn, plus 3 blocks at LoS at the start of a drive. So unless you do something stupid or risky (and that's your fault/choice), be it a griefer or a regular dorf coach, you can be completely sure you'll get blitzed each turn by some [CL]POMB tackler, then perhaps fouled as well, and 3 linemen you put on LoS will also undergo this treatment. It's just a regular course of events, not griefing. That will be the same if you'll play against elves or goblins.

@imploded said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again ๐Ÿ˜ž:
In a scheduled league there is a balance โ€“ if you don't care about the ball, your team will eventually be relegated

Not quite sure it's something specific to a schedule at all. That's more a type of policy used in some leagues you are referring to. You can "relegate" teams on such premise in CCL as well, if you'll prove it may be useful. I also not quite sure this mechanics exists to combat griefers, seems more like a byproduct of it. If I correctly understand what are you referring to, its main purpose is to separate teams into divisions of coaches with a similar level of skill. When one team loses too much, it's demoted to a lower division where it supposedly will be able to perform better. Doesn't change that much for a griefer though, assuming he doesn't care which exactly coaches he will be punishing. For him it will be even easier to pull through if he'll end up in a "lower" division.

last edited by Mori-Mori

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