Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again :-(

My Skaven team with TV 1380 fought just now in the Championship ladder X. It's a real struggle since you don't know what you gonna face.

I met a coach with about equal loss win ratio and 42 matches played. Chaos dwarfs just made to impact as much dmg as possible. He have no chance in the tournament with his record. He was just there to kill players of others. I got 400 in inducements.

After spending all three apos (death on my agi 5 gutter, 2 serious injuries) in turn 5! I had to just concede 😞

It's just sad this thing is possible, and takes all the fun away from my struggle to get a ok record. Just really really sad. I had already used many hours to get a ok start!

I tried to score fast and avoid him, but unlucky my agi 5 gutter failed to make the catch and all hell broke loose 😞

This is the team I faced (link), he had taken only 1 reroll and kept to 11 players, just to get teams like me to kill. 19 losses and 17 wins I think he had... and just waiting to ruin other coaches of lower TV.

8 mighty blows, 5 claws, 2 pile on, 6 tackle (dwarfs), 3 dirty players. 10 of the 11 with block. And all this below 1800 TV. Taking Morg'n'thor would not have helped at all, the claws and stuff would have taken him off pitch in minutes. The TV difference of 400 could not been fixed by the inducements vs this team. I took 2 apos, 2 budweiser and 1 extra lineman. No use of taking chef since he only had 1 reroll and was set to kill.

https://imgur.com/a/SkInw

Why grind your team and upgrade stadium to level 4, just to get a TV "reward" of toxic killing of the players you have grinded for days/weeks.... no wonder coaches are leaving the game! Why can't we have an official Cabalvision resurrection leauge with spp and money gain?? I really don't get it!

last edited by Hotdogchef

That's part of the game....ita called Blood Bowl.

Try not to make friends with your players and only use apothecaries on stat downs and deaths. Don't mark him. You quit turn 5 so there needs to be a whole other league where you don't lose players? I disagree and the game is fine as is. Not everyone is going to win

@hotdogchef said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Why can't we have an official Cabalvision resurrection leauge with spp and money gain?? I really don't get it!

A question many of us have asked for many years, and which has completely arbitrary obstacles thrown in its way any time things get closer to making that a reality.

The problem, I believe, is that Cyanide and Focus try to keep their fingers on the pulse of the playerbase by picking long-time BB players and asking their opinions, and generalizing those to everybody. Long-time players often hate the idea of rez, or cannot wrap their heads around rez + development, and violently oppose its existence. Likewise, the smarter ones know that an official rez + development league would likely empty COL, and possibly even CCL, of a large portion of their players and teams, and don't want to end up without people to stomp on.

What about introducing a limit of losses for Championship ladder? For example – you can't play any more in the league if you lost 5 times. Your result becomes fixed and that's it.

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

@imploded said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

What about introducing a limit of losses for Championship ladder? For example – you can't play any more in the league if you lost 5 times. Your result becomes fixed and that's it.

Limited playerbase is already an issue. Stopping people from playing won't help at all.

As I see it, that's not going to stop people from playing. That will stop people from developing teams that are only good for griefing.

The point of Championship ladder is getting to the top, right? After a certain number of losses a team usually loses any chances to get to the top and can only grief other players. This will stop people from playing in the long run.

If 5 losses is too low, what about 10 losses? Besides, a coach with 5/10 losses may continue playing in the league with a new team.

I really like your idea Imploded. I suggest to set the losses to 12 or 13 for the pricepool championship only. Based on the ladder for the championship and my experience. Two teams in current top 50 have 10 losses. 12 or 13 would be a good number. This would have stopped the guy, at least pretty much, that just tried to ruin the championship for me and others that want to get a good record in the major championship.

VoodooMike: This is the best thing you ever written on this forum. Thank you man. Yes why not call it a "Blood bowl light official Cabalvision tournament".

last edited by Hotdogchef
BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

Oh, I see. How would you actually implement this? Bearing in mind the manual nature of moderation I suspect it wouldn't be enforceable.

@dode74 said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Oh, I see. How would you actually implement this? Bearing in mind the manual nature of moderation I suspect it wouldn't be enforceable.

Ok, is one of your 5(?) accounts set just to make a team to kill stomp teams in the championship? Yes or no? and, you ever have run into the 19 losses kill stomp chaos dwarfs in the championship yourself??

last edited by Hotdogchef
BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

No, and no. Not that either question is relevant.

But that doesn't answer the question: how would this be implemented?

@dode74 said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

No, and no. Not that either question is relevant.

But that doesn't answer the question: how would this be implemented?

The question is relevant since it seems to me a group (large?) of blood bowl gamers here enjoy to make team to stomp/kill other coaches teams. At least for the main pricepool championship steps should be taken to reduce this. It's a lottery now to get your 1380 TV blood stomped with guys like that out there...

I am not a programmer. But is it impossible to program this? I can't believe it is...

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

Cyanide might be able to do something, but I very much doubt that will happen. Given that we have to work within current limitations. So, again, how would this be implemented?

At least for the main pricepool championship steps should be taken to reduce this.

Why? It's part of the game. It's a part that you don't like, sure, but it is undoubtedly part of it.

PS - prizepool, not pricepool. Intended as help rather than criticism.

@imploded said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

What about introducing a limit of losses for Championship ladder? For example – you can't play any more in the league if you lost 5 times. Your result becomes fixed and that's it.

This assumes that everyone who plays in CCL is trying to qualify for the end tournament. Given how few teams make it into that I'd say a whole lot of people in CCL play just to get better games with the lower rate of concession, and where they're not constantly facing highly developed teams with their fresh team (assuming they're not starting mid-to-end season).

It'd certainly make CCL a feast or famine environment for t3 teams whose win rates are expected to be low - they'd normally be able to make up for early losses with future wins, but locking them in at a certain number of losses would return CCL to the WC days where you need to get your string of wins in a row at the start and just re-make the team over and over until you get that string of wins...

@imploded said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

As I see it, that's not going to stop people from playing. That will stop people from developing teams that are only good for griefing.

I think it's a clumsy and invasive way of dealing with bash teams. People don't love starting over - if you look at one of the most repeated requests/demands related to CCL its people wanting their teams to carry over between seasons. If those folks take exception to having to start over every 6 weeks, imagine telling them they have to start over every 5 losses.

What it really boils down to is that to combat small-scale attrition you'd be introducing a form of large-scale attrition... 5 matches against chaos can kill a few players, 5 matches against skaven can kill your entire team. I'm not sure fighting fire with an even bigger fire is the best way to deal with what is only very subjectively a botherin CCL.

@hotdogchef said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

I am not a programmer. But is it impossible to program this? I can't believe it is...

The moderation of CCL is done manually. If you actually expect Cyanide to get involved and modify the game at a programming level, you'd best be talking about something world changing, not some minor slap-patch with questionable benefits. Even then it's a bit like getting a whale to do seaworld tricks... nice in theory, not so likely in practice.

@imploded said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

The point of Championship ladder is getting to the top, right? After a certain number of losses a team usually loses any chances to get to the top and can only grief other players. This will stop people from playing in the long run.

That's one point of view. Somebody else could say that this team just earns SPPs the most efficient way bash team can do it (from CAS), and tries to limits development of its arch-nemesis type of teams - agility teams - to have chance to win in the next season (assuming it's perpetual environment). Then, if Aging is added to the mix, which introduces some attrition to teams which are not susceptible to attrition that much through injuries/deaths, it should work just fine. In newer ruleset there is a Redrafting which plays the same role as Aging in BB2, btw, so it seems like this approach is the new reality chosen by GW to resolve some perpetual environment issues.

last edited by Mori-Mori
BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

@imploded said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

The point of Championship ladder is getting to the top, right?

No. It has multiple purposes, one of which is to provide a place where there are fewer concessions. People play there for all sorts of reasons, not just to qualify.

Another thing that puts me a bit off here is that it's a Skaven's coach who rises the issue. It's almost as if a Dwarves's coach would start complaining he can't handle a ball like an elf πŸ™‚ Skaven are solid tier 1 team, they are among best teams in the whole BB (some people even think they are the best team of them all). Being a hybrid team, they are probably the most "bashy" hybrid team of them all, as they have access to mutations. It often can be seen how agility and other hybrid teams' coaches whine about Skaven causing them a lot of attrition πŸ˜‰ The only thing that stops them from dominating everybody else except may be some elves teams is that they are still quite squishy, i.e. that very attrition (both short-term and long-term) topic starter makes a problem from.

I also have some doubts in validity of whole premise that killer teams on themselves are that much of a discouragement to agile/hybrid teams comparing to regular bash teams aiming for winning a competition, and that putting a limit on number of matches you're allowed to lose actually solves anything. It's quite possible to build a killer team which will be quite successful at winning as well, it's in the core mechanics of the game - the less players your opponent has on the pitch, the easier for you to win. It what the balance between agility and bash teams is built around in BB, in the first place. I don't think attrition caused to your team by a coach who tries to win champ is that much different from attrition caused by those who try to cause attrition. They both have exactly the same tools at their disposal, the difference exists mostly in your mind.

last edited by Mori-Mori

This doesn't help either:

@hotdogchef said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

I met a coach with about equal loss win ratio and 42 matches played. Chaos dwarfs just made to impact as much dmg as possible. He have no chance in the tournament with his record. He was just there to kill players of others. I got 400 in inducements.
After spending all three apos (death on my agi 5 gutter, 2 serious injuries) in turn 5! I had to just concede 😞

Spending 200k of inducements on apos instead of getting more tools to win the match bothers me even more. With such kind of mentality you probably shouldn't play agi/hybrid teams at all.. I still would like to know what makes you think the guy actually tried to grief you here? When you meet rats on the pitch, you crash them as bad as you can, even if you are an elf - it's an ancient, ubiquitously honored rule of BB, on par with beating crap out of Wardancers and Skinks. Especially Gutter-runners, you smash those buggers into oblivion on any possible occasion, unless you want to lose 5:2 in the end. So far, dorf coach hasn't done anything special, got a bit lucky, having removed 3 rats at turn 5 already, that's all. Could you perhaps share a replay of the match? I'm curious to look at it.

last edited by Mori-Mori

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

I don't think attrition caused to your team by a coach who tries to win champ is that much different from attrition caused by those who try to cause attrition. They both have exactly the same tools at their disposal, the difference exists mostly in your mind.

There is a difference. If a coach absolutely does not care about the ball but only plays to foul and kill – it is a different way of playing. This way, griefer coach can lose as many game as he pleases and invest only in destructive skills. Nothing stops him from losing several dozens games while destroying the teams that were unlucky to meet him. In a scheduled league there is a balance – if you don't care about the ball, your team will eventually be relegated. But in the championship ladder there are no negative consequences. There are only negative consequences for the coaches who are true to the spirit of the championship – the ones who are playing to win, not to grief.

Actually, this may become a popular strategy for coaches who already qualify for play-offs: create a team only to destroy, so that you could reduce the chances of other coaches to win. Let's wait and see.

There have been some discussions regarding long term attrition before, so may be something like this was already proposed, but if that attrition is such a big issue, may be capping it on per match basis could be a solution, at least as an optional feature for private leagues (not sure whether it's okay for CCL)? So, basically, everything will proceed as before, with coach using Apo during match to reroll some injuries/KOs, but at the end of the match, separately for each team, from a pool of all players who got permanent injuries of any type (including death), will be randomly selected say, just 2 of them who'll actually keep it, and the rest are considered recovered due to heroic acts of stadium's emergency team. Thus it effectively caps permanent injuries at "max 2 per match". I'm not a big fan of Rez and thus completely removing injuries from the game, that kills all the BB flavor.

last edited by Mori-Mori

@imploded said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

There is a difference. If a coach absolutely does not care about the ball but only plays to foul and kill – it is a different way of playing. This way, griefer coach can lose as many game as he pleases and invest only in destructive skills. Nothing stops him from losing several dozens games while destroying the teams that were unlucky to meet him.

Then again, how does it change tactics that much? Ideally, when playing agi or hybrid teams, you do all you can to prevent too much physical contact with a basher. You always keep distance limiting your "exposure" to his killers to 1 blitz per turn, plus 3 blocks at LoS at the start of a drive. So unless you do something stupid or risky (and that's your fault/choice), be it a griefer or a regular dorf coach, you can be completely sure you'll get blitzed each turn by some [CL]POMB tackler, then perhaps fouled as well, and 3 linemen you put on LoS will also undergo this treatment. It's just a regular course of events, not griefing. That will be the same if you'll play against elves or goblins.

@imploded said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:
In a scheduled league there is a balance – if you don't care about the ball, your team will eventually be relegated

Not quite sure it's something specific to a schedule at all. That's more a type of policy used in some leagues you are referring to. You can "relegate" teams on such premise in CCL as well, if you'll prove it may be useful. I also not quite sure this mechanics exists to combat griefers, seems more like a byproduct of it. If I correctly understand what are you referring to, its main purpose is to separate teams into divisions of coaches with a similar level of skill. When one team loses too much, it's demoted to a lower division where it supposedly will be able to perform better. Doesn't change that much for a griefer though, assuming he doesn't care which exactly coaches he will be punishing. For him it will be even easier to pull through if he'll end up in a "lower" division.

last edited by Mori-Mori

I really like so many things about this game, but most likely I give up and stop playing the game. When you play a team it SHOULD become more and more fun, not to see your beloved stars beat to pulp if you don't concede at a certain TV. And this could be fixed by adding a Cabalvision resurrection leauge with spp and money gain.

But as VoodooMike pointed out: Somebody are afraid that this leauge will be more popular than the others... ? and will take the fun away from making grief teams to kill the fun for guys like me.

And as I found out, you can meet killstacks already at TV 1380. Just sad really 😞 And this is actually the most random thing about Blood bowl 2 at the moment. Who you will run into when you press search. Removing the worst grief coaches would at least make the championship interesting for me. But High Master Chef dode74 don't think so, gg! and thanks for all the fish...

last edited by Hotdogchef

@hotdogchef said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

I really like so many things about this game, but most likely I give up and stop playing the game. When you play a team it SHOULD become more and more fun, not to see your beloved stars beat to pulp if you don't concede at a certain TV.

Sorry, but you seem to miss idea of the game completely. BB was developed to be either a short-term competition event (like tournament, or a season-long play session with reset at the end of the season, perhaps with Rez added), or a long-term perpetual league which never ends, where you can't "win the game". It's called "fantasy football manager" for a reason - your "player" is the team itself, your franchise, and not any specific star in your roster. Like in a real football team, your star can leave your club at the end of a contract, or get trauma and end their career (and you probably know that in latest BB rules by GW there is now a Redrafting mechanics which adds additional attrition to experienced players, now in a uniform way, so even Dwarfes and Chaos are affected and it become very hard to maintain your stars after 3-4 seasons, you are forced to constantly rotate your roster). Your team may become a top team of the League for a couple of seasons, then drop to the depth of the table due to unlucky event or bad management - again, like in real football world. The only difference is that's a chaotic, insane, violent fantasy football, of course πŸ™‚

It's not a MMO in a slightest where you can get to "high lv content" and feel like you accomplished something. It's just season after season, champ after champ endless grind with a lot of excitement and frustration. And especially as a agi/hybrid team's coach you must be ready to often bury your teams and create a new ones - as it's the part of their deal, they play the ball much better than others, yet can't suck in punches that good.

last edited by Mori-Mori

@hotdogchef said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

But as VoodooMike pointed out: Somebody are afraid that this leauge will be more popular than the others... ? and will take the fun away from making grief teams to kill the fun for guys like me.

Careful about expanding what I said into something I did NOT say... I don't think its about people who want to engage in griefing not wanting people to leave their full attrition leagues - I think it's people who simply do not like rez not wanting their preferred full-attrition environments being emptied of all the casual players who would prefer a rez environment. When I say they want people to stomp on I mean "beat in matches" not "grief with cpomb" or whatever you imagine it means.

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

It's not a MMO in a slightest where you can get to "high lv content" and feel like you accomplished something.

Games are whatever people want to make of them. We know from years of discussion on various forums that there are plenty of people who DO want to make it all about team development and consider individual matches to be less important than progress toward the goal of their ideal team... telling those folks "you're doing it wrong" is unproductive - people set their own goals. The real question is why is it such a big f'n issue to accommodate them? Long-term development people are inherently long-term participants in a playerbase... so what's the benefit of constantly alienating them beyond a small core of "we're the real spirit of BB" jackasses patting each other on the back?

Focus and Cyanide completely dropped the ball on that - they clearly wanted to sell periodic DLC but focused on appeasing the player demographic that hates their business model while ignoring the folks who would be most likely to buy into it. I bet they'll do that again with BB3, too.

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

The real question is why is it such a big f'n issue to accommodate them?

I believe the reason may be quite close to what you said yourself before - they need to consider potential that any kind of "attrition-less safespace" in form of official Rez league has potential to suck out a lot of coaches from main official leagues, dropping online which is not that good atm already. There is also the associated overhead related to developing a special perpetual environment without attrition, which yet makes sense and feels balanced somehow (as you can expect it becoming agility teams' safe heaven very soon), and you seem to be presenting good arguments in the other topic regarding why developing new mechanics may not be as simple as it looks like on the surface, from a developer's perspective πŸ˜‰ It may be just a matter of ROI - how numerous are those who needs all those special conditions to enjoy BB, how much they are actually willing to pay for a DLC with this feature, how to deliver them this feature in a way consistent with other modes of play, yet by ensuring Cyanide will get paid for this additional development overhead invested etc.

last edited by Mori-Mori

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

I believe the reason may be quite close to what you said yourself before - they need to consider potential that any kind of "attrition-less safespace" in form of official Rez league has potential to suck out a lot of coaches from main official leagues, dropping online which is not that good atm already.

If it pulls out the majority of people then you simply replace COL with a rez version of itself and leave CCL as is, unless it also pulls people out of CCL en masse in which case you replace CCL with a rez version of itself too. Given the nearly 10 years of attrition complaints I'd say this isn't as tough a calculation as you're claiming. Remember that when something "sucks out" coaches its because they prefer it enough that they're willing to abandon the old environment.

There's also the elephant in the room at the end of that quoted section - asking why its "not that good atm already". Permanent attrition is not what most gamers expect in modern games, and whether or not we agree with that expectation or share it, giving gamers something more punishing than they expect is likely to turn them sour on the game. I'm willing to bet BB2's future on the idea that we lose fewer anti-rez people with its introduction than we're losing people who don't like permanent attrition from the numbers of new coaches who have no past BB experience.

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

you seem to be presenting good arguments in the other topic regarding why developing new mechanics may not be as simple as it looks like on the surface, from a developer's perspective

Rez and progression are already implemented in BB2. If anything, it was more work to remove progression when rez is on than it would have been NOT to do that. They just need to go back and undo that.

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

@hotdogchef said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

your beloved stars

Here's the issue. You're attached to your players. A Rez league would work for you.

In my opinion thinking a bash team that initially plays to remove players and not handle the ball is only used for griefing is incorrect. That's what bash teams normally need to do to win.

And such a team with 42 matches and an even number of wins and losses sounds like a coach who is about average playing their team using a reasonable strategy. As a coach who has played skaven a lot I understand the frustration when you lose a bunch of players early in the match. I also understand that a bash team wouldn't have much of a chance to win the match if they couldn't remove my players from the pitch.

While guys like this are pretty annoying to play against it's bloodbowl. You will face murder teams who don't care about the ball. Even more so in the ladder.

My first recommendation would be to join an organised league. A team like his would not thrive and so is rare. Secondly don't stress about playing teams like this and as others have said appreciate playing a "light" team you are going to have deaths and casualties. This should be part of the fun challenge of playing them. If you don't like this aspect it's better to play a fighty team.

Another point his claws are pretty redundant vs your team. So he is giving away thousands into to you there.

Another point. If this is the player I'm thinking off he's not a great player and can be beaten. I watched a stream last night where a guy beat him 2-0 as he doesn't even bother much with the ball.

Finally don't worry about deaths in these games. They are actually quite rare, so are injuries. So if you bought an extra apo you can survive. Also with skaven you can outplay them even with 7 or so players. Never give in. I had a recent league game where I think 3 of my players were knocked out first go. And my opponent scored on my drive. I still won 2-1 so in bloodbowl never give up.

I find the best way to play is to have a laugh and role play. Skaven are meant to die a lot. You can't play them if you don't like this aspect. It's like being an elf. They are the best bloodbowl players but have the shortest lifespans.

Hope that helps some.

@voodoomike said:

The real question is why is it such a big f'n issue to accommodate them? Long-term development people are inherently long-term participants in a playerbase... so what's the benefit of constantly alienating them beyond a small core of "we're the real spirit of BB" jackasses patting each other on the back?

I can only speculate but isn't that because Games Workshop sets the rules? In most Warhammer games that I have seen (save for "Dawn of War" series, but it started as an RTS video game and wasn't just a conversion that had to follow some pre-existing tabletop rules) there is a huge emphasis on lethality/mortality and RNG aspects. There are many clues in-game that point out to the brutal nature of Blood Bowl ("the clue is in the name"), so having teams that rely on fouling/injuring opponents in order to gain advantage shouldn't come as a surprise, nor should the perma-death element of the game.

Being brutal for the sake of being bruta shouldn't be the point. The point is winning a match itself, which can be done only by scoring touchdowns. However, you have to realize that for some teams this can be done by injurying/killing/fouling the opposition. With less players on the board it's easier to get the ball across the field. There are other things worth considering: such as doing as much damage as possible in order to have better chances next time you have to play against that team. Or to force enemy coach to not stall his unstoppable touchdown as his players get punished for that.

But I will admit that it's surprisingly easy to get many injuries, even during normal blocks.

It was especially shocking to me as it happened to occur during the Campaign match against Orcs, where I was aiming to foul their Black Orcs in order to get rid of them, while also accomplishing the challenge objective ("get 3 fouls"). As it turned out - both Black Orcs were either injured or died during standard block actions against my mostly unkilled human team and fouls became more of a formality rather than a tool I expected them to be when I started that match.

@holy said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

I can only speculate but isn't that because Games Workshop sets the rules?

No. GW doesn't much care what Cyanide does with the game as evidenced by the fact that Cyanide has casually added non-GW rosters and rules (like stadium upgrades) as well as declared it has no interest in updating BB2 to the latest GW ruleset for Blood Bowl.

Likewise, Cyanide has already implemented Rez, and had stated the intention to have progression as an option but only a totally new form of progression... and then they didn't get around to adding it before LE's release. So it's not a matter of them not wanting to have rez, or not wanting to have rez with progression, or not being allowed to do those things... it's just some bizarre opposition to rez with normal SPP progression, and that's mostly something you see old players championing on merit of "we mostly don't see that, so it must be evil".

Once upon a time Cyanide tried to use "GW won't let us" as an excuse (for not including Chaos Dwarfs in one of the BB1 editions) at which point a GW rep posted to the forums saying it was categorically untrue. They've never fielded that excuse since.

@holy said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

In most Warhammer games that I have seen (save for "Dawn of War" series, but it started as an RTS video game and wasn't just a conversion that had to follow some pre-existing tabletop rules) there is a huge emphasis on lethality/mortality and RNG aspects.

Its not death and injury during matches that is the issue at hand, it's permanent death and injury... and you don't see those in most Warhammer (fantasy or 40k) video games. Your character wasn't deleted in Warhammer Online when you died... You don't lose all your equipment when you die in a game of Vermintide. Opting to have permanent team damage in BB2 is a choice.. and an unusual one even for GW video games.

I don't fault them for defaulting to how the TT works in general, but I find it bizarre that they're so against rez with normal progression when that's exactly what people who have never played the TT game will be expecting.

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