Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again :-(

It really seems to me the high TV matches are like flip 20 coins each, and if one is lucky and get heads 13-14 times the other guy concedes? It's not about nice moves and good play anymore, just flip some coins and hope for most luck. Sorry, but that's how it feels. AND THIS is WHY this game need a Cabalvision res leauge with spp and money gain. So teams can at least continue to fight and try to pull of moves even if taking losses. Flip 20 coins matches.... sure GG.

Rez league is for weaklings, but I dont mind if you want to play it.

I would also say it could be optional for me in the same league.

  • I dont mind having a real team vs the weakling teams. It would be tougher for me, and I would feel better about winning.

If I wasnt allowed to be in the rez league with my real team, I would probably make a rez team anyway. I could probably fire players, but thats stupid. Its Bloobowl, and I want players to die.

@marni said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

I would also say it could be optional for me in the same league.

I always liked the idea of a combo league with both types - I had proposed that back in the BB1 days. The idea would be to give new teams the option to be rez or full attrition, and give the full attrition teams a checkbox option prior to queuing to exclusively be matched with other full attrition teams. The matchmaking system would prioritize matching the two types of teams with others of the same type when possible, but it'd give the full attrition teams the option to be paired with rez teams if they didn't mind that. Additionally, full attrition teams would have the option to convert to rez teams at any point, though it would be a one-way conversion.

Then you just have two separate leaderboards - one for full attrition, one for rez.

I suspect, however, there'd be very few full attrition teams in short order.

@marni said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

I could probably fire players, but thats stupid. Its Bloobowl, and I want players to die.

Fire the ones that die during a match and you're still playing full attrition, you just have to voluntarily allow them to die. The only thing you have now is that being an automated process, which isn't really any more dire...

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

I suspect, however, there'd be very few full attrition teams in short order.

There will be, as othewise full attrition teams will quickly find themselve playing with a huge disadvantage. For this all to become a sane system there also needs to be Aging or similar rule in place which causes attrition to Rez teams.

last edited by Mori-Mori

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

There will be, as othewise full attrition teams will quickly find themselve playing with a huge disadvantage. For this all to become a sane system there also needs to be Aging or similar rule in place which causes attrition to Rez teams.

People seem to forget that BB2 already has ageing in place in all public leagues. You'll notice that I said that full-attrition teams would have the option to queue for games exclusively against other full-attrition teams... so the only disadvantage those teams would have is there being very few people who want to play their way.

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

There will be, as othewise full attrition teams will quickly find themselve playing with a huge disadvantage. For this all to become a sane system there also needs to be Aging or similar rule in place which causes attrition to Rez teams.

You'll notice that I said that full-attrition teams would have the option to queue for games exclusively against other full-attrition teams... so the only disadvantage those teams would have is there being very few people who want to play their way.

Missed that point, indeed. I still can't see it working that well unless it will be some sort of main official league. First, anything with "Rez" in its properties will attract a very specific group of coaches overly-concerned about longevity of their pixels. It can be safely assumed they'll be a majority in it. Coaches who are fond of full-attrition ruleset currently won't see much sense in joining just one more league, not to say one using strange mix of Rez and full-attrition (people don't have limitless time, they already are member of some communities and won't trade them for some new strange hybrid system). Those few who'll join indeed will find it hard to get a game with other full-attrition teams due to low numbers of those, and Rez teams will be generally more developed than their own (depending on how severe are Aging effects will be there, and whether or not Aging will be also applied to full-attrition teams in such case). So in the end they'll be forced to stop playing there or go Rez themselve, excluding few who don't mind a lot of challenge of playing Rez teams with full-attrition team.

So the only way it seem to really work as planned is when it's forced upon a large group of people. Like, using it in CCL. Otherwise I see it turning full-Rez pretty quickly, though not because Rez is so wonderful system (like it seems to me you try to imply)

last edited by Mori-Mori

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:
so the only disadvantage those teams would have is there being very few people who want to play their way.

Far far away in a galaxy named "pure ethereal theory"

No VM, you must be joking. The all thread is a joke anyway.

But as nobody can speak to you without being flamed if not litteraly insulted...well almost nobody remains speaking.

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

I still can't see it working that well unless it will be some sort of main official league.

Well, the idea is that it'd be the main league since it allows for both styles of play within the same environment, allowing both the normal and rez teams to play one another if they choose to but not forcing non-rez teams to face rez teams if they don't want to. There'd really be no reason to have it be a separate league from things like COL since it would offer all the functionality of the current COL, but with the additional option to play a rez team. People who dislike rez would not be forced into using rez, or playing against rez teams if they didn't want to.

There's no downside, unless you count the fact that, I suspect, non-rez teams would find it hard to get a game within a couple of months.

@ungern said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Far far away in a galaxy named "pure ethereal theory"

Yep, everything about the future is theory. If I'm wrong then you have nothing to worry about in such an environment as people would, based on your theory, ignore rez and just play normally anyway.

@ungern said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

But as nobody can speak to you without being flamed if not litteraly insulted...well almost nobody remains speaking.

...and yet, it's you who offers nothing but flaming and trolling in this thread. Funny how that works.

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Yep, everything about the future is theory. If I'm wrong then you have nothing to worry about in such an environment.

I wasn't actually interested in your random speculation on the topic. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

I juste wrote so that Cyanide/Focus don't think you represent the community more than just for yourself, also explaining why I think no one reacts so that they don't take it as a global approvment on this idea.

Given that you're not part of their team, literally everything else you're saying is totally irrelevant so... thanks, but...

Bloodbowl is about luck and skill. I think if you take away players randomly dying, you are losing some of that luck.

I dont want to play more polished teams, or more skilled teams. I want to play a team with a bunch of good players, but missing a ball carrier, or missing a blocker/big guy. Or missing that extra lineman with block fend and tackle.

I win some games on skill, but I literally use luck as a tool to help secure victory against more skillful opponents and better teams (or better designed teams).

@ungern said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

I juste wrote so that Cyanide/Focus don't think you represent the community more than just for yourself, also explaining why I think no one reacts so that they don't take it as a global approvment on this idea.

I think that if there was any confusion about that in terms of Cyanide's belief, your posts wouldn't change much. Likewise, given that there was global disapproval of many of the changes they opted to make in BB2, or even in some versions of BB1, I'd go so far as to say that global "approvment" [sic] is not their prime motivator.

@ungern said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Given that you're not part of their team, literally everything else you're saying is totally irrelevant so... thanks, but...

Relevant enough that you were worried that they give my words more weight than, say, yours. Maybe if you gave off more confidence and less... pettiness... you wouldn't make that so true πŸ˜‰

@marni said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Bloodbowl is about luck and skill. I think if you take away players randomly dying, you are losing some of that luck.

I don't think anyone wants to force you to play rez. The question is: do you object to other people doing it, and if so... why? We could have the main MM division be both, without the rez players interacting with folks who dislike rez should those people want to never play against them. Unlike so many people who grind their teeth about all this, I don't see it as a zero-sum game... there's no reason we can't all get what we want.

@voodoomike said:

I don't think anyone wants to force you to play rez. The question is: do you object to other people doing it, and if so... why?

People tend to be are afraid of change and not knowing the exact effects of the change make them even more afraid, which in turn makes them despise it on emotional level. It's generally the safer (in practical terms as well as emotionally) to contest the change.

I have seen this in some games, "Rainbow Six: Siege" for example, where developers where shaking the meta by changing things. It was almost always hotly contested by some vocal people, but in the end most of the changes proved to be good for the game's health and gameplay.

Β«TheyΒ» are afraid an extra Cabalvision leauge with rez and spp and money gain will be more popular than the other leauges... that’s what I think...

And if this is true... why? Don’t Cyanide want the BB2 population grow?

last edited by Hotdogchef

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Well, the idea is that it'd be the main league since it allows for both styles of play within the same environment, allowing both the normal and rez teams to play one another if they choose to but not forcing non-rez teams to face rez teams if they don't want to.

It depends what are you understand under "official league" here. If it will be CCL, or its substitute, i.e. a main, official competitive league with some real money prizes etc, then there is a problem - they'll need to have 2 different prize pools and hold competitions for both groups separately, otherwise it places players into too unequal conditions. If you'll place players into unequal conditions while giving them some strong incentive to win, it won't be surprising when they'll indeed will try any means available to increase their chances.

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

There's no downside, unless you count the fact that, I suspect, non-rez teams would find it hard to get a game within a couple of months.

Do the Rez-stile leagues exist at Fumbbl and do they see as much popularity as leagues with full-attrition? If they don't exist, or popular (as I haven't heard much about them, but then again, I don't play there too often), then why? That's certainly not something they couldn't implement, they implemented tons of other home rules; they also bothered enough to get rid of PO to lower attrition - so much trouble, it seems to me, why not remove attrition from CAS completely if Rez is so superior style of play as it seems to be?

In short I have some doubts such sterile, devoid of serious risks kind of BB is indeed that much popular among coaches. As we are talking about group of coaches who are hardcore enough to still play BB with all its giant kicks to the groin and Aging taking away their beloved stars constantly, but not hardcore enough to tolerate them dying from a blow to the head in this very match they play. This may happen to be a not so numerous group, i.e. a lot of people still may won't like BB's vibe in general and will find something to grumble about anyway.

last edited by Mori-Mori

I know what kills the game most for me, and that's the deaths. Multiple injuries will after a while "kill" a player, but still its much preferred over the random deaths of key players. Of course the opponent will try to harm your most important player as much as he can.... so the chance of losing key players are bigger. Losing key players with developed roles simply kills the fun of the game for me. When I finally developed a nice combo. The game just randomly kills my xx hours invested in the team. I want to develop my team and feel my hours spent developing pays off in fun and developed moments.

Develop the team to a higher TV, gets a 400+ killer combo team vs you. We already covered that he has an extra advantage due to the broken inducement system. And the fun with your team can be taken away, just like that. Deaths, too many injuries. Its not only your record that can get smashed... the worst is the permanent dmg to your team. In an online enviroment ... a rez leauge with spp and money gain would fit perfectly....

Over a 15 year span I left the game 2-3 times at least because of the deaths. They take the fun away from the game. Please, Cyanide... hear our calls.

last edited by Hotdogchef

@voodoomike : do you object to other people doing it, and if so... why?

I already mentioned...

I think it takes away an element of randomness. I need my opponents to have random deaths to help even the playing field.

I have less skill, My team composition will be less than optimal, and my skills picked may not be the best. I want my opponents to be a little more ramshackle like me.

Why do coaches want a rez team?
-They want to be proud of a team? They could be even prouder to make their team with out Rez.
-They want to make their own perfect team? They can already do that by clicking on β€˜custom team’ during team creation.
-*They don’t want a team ruined by losing a star? This one is understandable, but your opponents can be just as unlucky. Its not uneven, its just a cold justice.

(Also sorry I don’t know how quotes work on my Iphone)

last edited by Marni

@hotdogchef said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Over a 15 year span I left the game 2-3 times at least because of the deaths. They take the fun away from the game. Please, Cyanide... hear our calls.

Over 30 years the deaths and random mayhem has stopped me leaving the game time and again. Please Cyanide...hear our calls.

Why bother with Rez at all? Why not just allow coaches to "build" their team(s) to whatever TV they want, and then match the teams by TV (or closest TV etc etc). No need to even bother with SPPs, MVPs, Injuries and cash at all.
Just like a (bigger) Resurrection tournament.

A Rez "progression" league is just a poorer version of Progression and Resurrection.

@hotdogchef said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Develop the team to a higher TV, gets a 400+ killer combo team vs you. We already covered that he has an extra advantage due to the broken inducement system.

It's not broken, it's intentionally designed to be like that, as clarified by @Darkson before. The point is to emphasize long-term strategical moves which affect your and others team's progress (like killing your competing coach's best player(s), or wisely developing and playing your team so you take less attrition than others, less skillful coaches). If inducements would be balancing everything to such extent that a match between 2 teams would see 50% change of winrate for both of them, regardless of what teams (what race, what TV) they are, that would mean whatever stupid and badly planned strategy one coach will adopt, he'll anyway will be equalized with coaches who put much more effort in planning their development and choosing appropriate tactics in each match. This basically turns the league play into a non-ending queue of frendly matches, now with progression.

Killing other coache's players (and protecting yours) is not a "game-breaking flaw", it's a tool you must use to get advantage in a long run. It adds a new layer to the game, while you keep insisting for everything to be decided on the pitch, simply because you can't overcome your love to some arbitrary bytes on remote server. I bet if Rez is implemented as it should, with Aging taking care of attrition, the next your complain will be "This broken Aging mechanics takes out my best players just right after I developed my dream combo of star players!". The core issue (as can be seen from your others threads on this forum) is that you don't like BB, you like chess, and won't be satisfied until you'll turn BB into another boring static turn based game. Though I agree with @dode74 that everybody should be allowed to have their own league with any ruleset they need, that definitely is not the way how to manage main leagues. It removes "blood" from Blood Bowl, thus killing a half of game's core experience. Surely, nothing can go wrong here, and nobody will ever have any reason to object to such "fix", right? πŸ˜‰

@marni said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

-They want to make their own perfect team? They can already do that by clicking on β€˜custom team’ during team creation.

That's thing that puzzles me as well. I completely can't understand people who try to play BB like some kind of cut-to-the-bone MMO, with almost non-existence social part (unless you are a member of some tight private league) and absolute lack of fountains where you could show off your top-notch enchanted armor to everybody. No "hi-level content", no vanity stuff like blinking halos above your head, it's just the same BB all the time, just with somewhat more skills at higher TV. Which you can get anyway by creating a custom team in 5 minutes, without need to grind for months and rely on dice rolls on level ups.

last edited by Mori-Mori

@marni said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

I think it takes away an element of randomness. I need my opponents to have random deaths to help even the playing field.

That's not a reason for people to be unable to play rez, that's a reason for you to not be required to play against rez teams with your non-rez teams, and that's not anything anyone has suggested. Nobody is trying to force you to play a rez team or against a rez team.

Unless you mean that you don't like the idea of it and thus think people should be prohibited from playing that way... sort'v the BB equivalent of a straight person actively objecting to gay marriage claiming its existence cheapens his own.

@darkson said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Why bother with Rez at all? Why not just allow coaches to "build" their team(s) to whatever TV they want, and then match the teams by TV (or closest TV etc etc). No need to even bother with SPPs, MVPs, Injuries and cash at all.

Because people enjoy the team development process. People like to win games, but you don't ask why they don't cheat at them and skip the uncertainty and difficulty, do you? As a long-time tabletop player of Blood Bowl team attrition may seem natural to you, but to the general gaming population major setbacks are not part of what they consider fun, especially when they're instituted via punishing randomness or malevolent opponents (or what they perceive to be those things).

Progression is a popular thing, which is why you see it in almost every game... even places where it makes little sense. Long-term penalties are not a popular thing, which is why you see them vanishing from games where they were commonplace in the past.

I'm not saying anyone needs to take part, they just need to seriously ask themselves why they stand in the way.