Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again :-(

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Because people enjoy the team development process.

Which includes deaths, injuries (career-ending or not) and retirements (either because of ageing rules or just a desire to trim TV).

Sad that some tries to be constructive and some aims to be the best internet-troll around...

Congrats you won the medal. Now stop?

@darkson said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Which includes deaths, injuries (career-ending or not) and retirements (either because of ageing rules or just a desire to trim TV).

Well, clearly not everybody enjoys that aspect of it since long-term attrition is at the center of the majority of complaints we see related to open play. People come up with half-assed excuses, some they may even believe, like the idea that TV differences are too high, or the claw skill is "broken", or that there's too much bash, etc etc... but it all boils down to team damage.

This isn't even a serious debate: we can look at the last 10-15 years of the gaming industry - which is an industry that involves more money than Hollywood at this point - and see what conclusions they've come up with about what makes people happy. In general, games create an environment in which you can make progress and be rewarded for your time investment without negative reinforcement... yes, the better players progress faster and will end up ahead of the pack, but anyone willing to invest time and energy can get where they're going at the pace they want to move without having a negative experience in the process.... and why shouldn't they? It's a leisure activity that they pay to be part of.

If I was suggesting something that involved forcing you to play a way you don't want to then I'd understand the opposition, but I'm advocating a system in which you can play your way and people who don't enjoy the same things you do can play a different way. The only way it steps on the toes of non-rez coaches is if it turns out rez is vastly more popular than non-rez and becomes the dominant style of play... and I see that as win-win... either it lets normal, full attrition people play the way they want without affecting them AND lets people who don't want to play with attrition play their own way.... or it completely takes over online play and we find out it should have been how things were done from the beginning.

@hotdogchef said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Sad that some tries to be constructive and some aims to be the best internet-troll around...

It's most fortunate we can rely on your infallible judgement to tell ones from the others.

@voodoomike said : That's not a reason for people to be unable to play rez

I guess its OK. I dont mind, I will add though that If you do select β€˜rez’ team the game should warn you that you are a weakling, or something. Just to remind them πŸ™‚

I would play in whatever league has the most players, so I get variety, and quick games etc.

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

This isn't even a serious debate: we can look at the last 10-15 years of the gaming industry - which is an industry that involves more money than Hollywood at this point - and see what conclusions they've come up with about what makes people happy. In general, games create an environment in which you can make progress and be rewarded for your time investment without negative reinforcement... yes, the better players progress faster and will end up ahead of the pack, but anyone willing to invest time and energy can get where they're going at the pace they want to move without having a negative experience in the process.... and why shouldn't they? It's a leisure activity that they pay to be part of.

And still except of games like WoW , there are games like EvE Online and Lineage, which are extremely unforgiving and are built around a concept of ubiquitous PvP activity and constant threat of huge loses tied to it - and they still are very popular games, financially as well, simply because they take a specific niche that has its own dedicated fanbase. What you are advocating for is "turn EvE into WoW cause of reasons and also some casual players did cry!" It's not always built around the concept of maximum profit and taking over all markets, sometimes about just stable profit and dedicated target audience.

Again, it's totally okay for Rez lovers to have their own league where they can happily develop their pixels for whatever final goal, but it's just not BB in it's true form and doesn't belong to main leagues, competitive at least.

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

If I was suggesting something that involved forcing you to play a way you don't want to then I'd understand the opposition, but I'm advocating a system in which you can play your way and people who don't enjoy the same things you do can play a different way.

It's not quite true. Unless CCL will be reformed like this, what actual incentive do you see for any coach now happily playing under the current ruleset to join it? To play in some kind of Rez league, but still only with other non-Rez teams? But why, he can do it at CCL or any other private league using the core rules he is already a member of. To play at disadvantage with Rez teams? Well, somebody who seek even more challenge may try it, but not many, I guess.

So the only way to get such thing going seems to be actually using it in CCL - and then it becomes a problem, as it won't be optional anymore, unless you enjoy playing even more uneven game than BB intrinsically does offer. Unless there will be 2 different "worlds" with their own tournaments in there, it will force you to go Rez, sooner or later, yet not because you really want it. And if there will be 2 different ladders and tourneys, then what is the difference? It could be a CCL with full CRP and, say, COL with Rez, and no need for strange mixed environments.

last edited by Mori-Mori

Well I only expect people here have the ability to read at least. People complain about deaths and stop playing due to this... It's sad really, if they love the game in general. Make a Cabalvision rez leauge with spp and money gain (that will make it 3 leauges total + the championship). More options, more people happy. What is the problem... ah yes, to be a internet-troll! And it actually works.... mori and darkson makes me mad! Congrats and well done guys!!!!

@marni said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

I guess its OK. I dont mind, I will add though that If you do select β€˜rez’ team the game should warn you that you are a weakling, or something. Just to remind them πŸ™‚

Yeah, I don't think they'd opt for that. What if it just gives you self-esteem boosting comments from time to time if you're playing full attrition like "Women find your gaming style way sexy" or "It doesn't matter what your mother said, you will amount to something" and "don't worry, gay marriage won't erode the moral foundation of your good christian marriage" and stuff like that?

@marni said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

I would play in whatever league has the most players, so I get variety, and quick games etc.

I'm betting rez would pretty quickly take over open play, but hey, I could be wrong. Given that most people who absolutely cannot tolerate the match-level attrition system have probably already left it could take a while before it did πŸ˜‰

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

And still except of games like WoW , there are games like EvE Online and Lineage, which are extremely unforgiving and are built around a concept of ubiquitous PvP activity and constant threat of huge loses tied to it - and they still are very popular games, financially as well, simply because they take a specific niche that has its own dedicated fanbase

It takes all kinds, sure. Be careful not to conflate the exception with the rule, though - those are popular, well-financed games because they have reached a particular demographic that has proven large enough to support it. BB2 does not appear to have access to that large a userbase given the pooling numbers.

Plus, even if we use the examples of Lineage 2 and EVE, neither of those has the sort of unavoidable loss that Blood Bowl has. In lineage 2 you lose XP for death, but never levels... only progress toward the next level... and they've reduced the death penalty debuff over time. In EVE you can (and everyone does) buy insurance such that if your ship is destroyed you can replace it without having to rebuy it from nothing. There's no unavoidable loss like there is in Blood Bowl, and its certainly not something you can suffer because of two or three dice rolls.

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Again, it's totally okay for Rez lovers to have their own league where they can happily develop their pixels for whatever final goal, but it's just not BB in it's true form and doesn't belong to main leagues, competitive at least.

...and yet there's really no reason to force a mandatory separation between classic and rez play in the main league. If teams can be flagged as one or the other, and classic (full attrition) teams can, each time they queue, opt to only be paired with other classic teams, then you have the same environment you currently have, only with the option to play rez for those who want it. People who don't like rez need never interact with it. People who don't want to play AS a rez team can optionally go for faster pairings by accepting either type (with a priority geared toward similar team types).. and rez teams just get the luck of the draw since they have no reason to avoid non-rez teams that might want to face them.

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Unless CCL will be reformed like this, what actual incentive do you see for any coach now happily playing under the current ruleset to join it?

It's mainly something I see for COL.. CCL could go rez but it'd have to be all rez or all non-rez, not both. People really need to stop considering those two environments as being basically the same thing.

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

and no need for strange mixed environments.

Your inability to wrap your head around a hybrid environment doesn't make it strange. It is an incredibly simple concept that allows us to use one large league rather than forcing people to split their play between multiple leagues... while still letting the people who have an irrational hatred for rez to never play it or with it.

What I don't see is the reason we'd split things into multiple separate leagues when it isn't absolutely necessary.

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:Yeah, I don't think they'd opt for that.

They already insult you for logging out. I was just keeping with the theme they initiated.

I personally don’t think the game needs to insult me at all, but the game makers did.

and its not like it comes up every time you would play, only when you make the team.

β€œAre you sure you wish to make a team with players who can’t die, none of the cool kids are doing it”

I’m not sure the exact wording, but that would be my compromise.

@marni said:

They already insult you for logging out. I was just keeping with the theme they initiated.

I personally don’t think the game needs to insult me at all, but the game makers did.

These "insults" are thematic jokes. Quite funny too. At least I know I laughed at couple of them. Same with loading texts - they are more interesting to read than "standard" ones. It does remind me of the installation process of the very first "The Sims" video game.

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Do the Rez-stile leagues exist at Fumbbl and do they see as much popularity as leagues with full-attrition? If they don't exist, or popular (as I haven't heard much about them, but then again, I don't play there too often), then why? That's certainly not something they couldn't implement, they implemented tons of other home rules; they also bothered enough to get rid of PO to lower attrition - so much trouble, it seems to me, why not remove attrition from CAS completely if Rez is so superior style of play as it seems to be?

No. You cannot combine rez and SPP progression. I did ask Christer about that for a tournament I wanted to run. He seemed genuinely baffled as to why I'd want such a thing, πŸ˜‰

As he has not considered it, he would need to unpick the design of his system to accommodate it. I don't think there is enough demand for that.

In short I have some doubts such sterile, devoid of serious risks kind of BB is indeed that much popular among coaches. As we are talking about group of coaches who are hardcore enough to still play BB with all its giant kicks to the groin and Aging taking away their beloved stars constantly, but not hardcore enough to tolerate them dying from a blow to the head in this very match they play. This may happen to be a not so numerous group, i.e. a lot of people still may won't like BB's vibe in general and will find something to grumble about anyway.

I think that the argument is that it could help keep some of the noobs/wusses in the game. If they stay, they may become 'hardcore' in time.

I don't think that many people using attrition teams would want to play vs non-attrition teams.
It would be easier for NA teams to build a better team.
People could also make different decisions if they know that a player is immortal.

So, yes. Attrition coaches would fear another user base split.

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

What I don't see is the reason we'd split things into multiple separate leagues when it isn't absolutely necessary.

Your inability to wrap your head around that incredibly simple question is due to your irrational hate of everything that's not going your way.

Seriously I don't think anyone minds this "res+progression idea" being available as an option but imo we more urgently need some other features :
.fixing remaining bugs,
.getting all proper starplayers skins,
.allowing to buy inducments in (real) res environnment...

In any case don't mix it with CCL, it's just another game.

@marni said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

They already insult you for logging out. I was just keeping with the theme they initiated.

The game insults everybody in those cases, which is why it can be taken as humour. What we're talking about is insulting a selected demographic which is less likely to be seen as funny to those people.

@koadah said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

I don't think that many people using attrition teams would want to play vs non-attrition teams.

Hard to say. Given that you're far less likely to find "killer" teams in rez as compared with teams that strive to win, there may be more appeal than you think... I imagine it'd depend on the resulting demographics, as well as the traffic in each of the types of matchmaking.

The real Millsian question being: is there any reason to prevent full-attrition teams from having the option to queue against rez teams?

@koadah said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

So, yes. Attrition coaches would fear another user base split.

The people who would be drawn to rez play aren't happy (or as happy) playing attrition, so you're going to progressively get that split anyway as those people figuratively "split" from the game. Those people aren't there to be your punching bag, they're there to have fun. If your fear is that people who don't want to play your way will stop playing your way, and thus you want to force them to stay as your gaming prisoners... the issue isn't that you're afraid, it's that you're an asshole.

@ungern said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Your inability to wrap your head around that incredibly simple question is due to your irrational hate of everything that's not going your way.

Heh, yeah... I'm the one giving off that impression.

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Heh, yeah... I'm the one giving off that impression.

Spot on voodoomike, spot on!

last edited by Hotdogchef

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

The people who would be drawn to rez play aren't happy (or as happy) playing attrition, so you're going to progressively get that split anyway as those people figuratively "split" from the game. Those people aren't there to be your punching bag, they're there to have fun. If your fear is that people who don't want to play your way will stop playing your way, and thus you want to force them to stay as your gaming prisoners... the issue isn't that you're afraid, it's that you're an asshole.

They're not "my" punching bag.

I'm not playing it. You haven't even nerfed CPOMB yet. πŸ˜‰

There are plenty of other things wrong with it besides.

I personally have no fear about it. I only use single player.

I would be interested to see how it worked out. A lot of people might like it. A lot of crap things are very popular. πŸ™‚

@koadah said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

They're not "my" punching bag.

It's the general "you", obviously. You're very good about trying to make things about something else.

@koadah said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

A lot of crap things are very popular. πŸ™‚

While that's true, lets remember that at the pitch level nothing changes. If you (the general you before you start complaining about being attacked) enjoy Blood Bowl at the pitch level then saying rez will ruin the game for you is disingenuous. Complaining that rez ruins things for you is really nothing more than a complaint that we'd be taking away YOUR control over THEIR team.. you can control your own team just fine, even under rez... you can fire players for having died in the last match if you want.

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

@koadah said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

They're not "my" punching bag.

It's the general "you", obviously. You're very good about trying to make things about something else.

'General you'? I see. Maybe if you had said 'You are not their punching bag' that would bag it would have been clearer.

@koadah said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

A lot of crap things are very popular. πŸ™‚

While that's true, lets remember that at the pitch level nothing changes. If you (the general you before you start complaining about being attacked) enjoy Blood Bowl at the pitch level then saying rez will ruin the game for you is disingenuous. Complaining that rez ruins things for you is really nothing more than a complaint that we'd be taking away YOUR control over THEIR team.. you can control your own team just fine, even under rez... you can fire players for having died in the last match if you want.

Of course, the game changes. Team make up will be different. Decisions will be different. If your team is non rez, rez teams are likely to be stronger.
Low AV helps keep agile teams in check.

I'm not saying don't do it. I'm just saying that it will be crap.

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

the issue isn't that you're afraid, it's that you're an asshole.

First "jackasses", now "asshole", what's the next step ?!
...

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

lets remember that at the pitch level nothing changes.

That's completely false in my opinion.

Playing a game of risk/reward managment against someone who hasn't the risk part would be like playing poker against someone which had bring monopoly money at the table.

Hi all,

Please keep in mind that we're all Blood Bowl fans here, and to not attack others or call them names here. Please keep discussions civil and courteous.

@iyagovos said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Hi all,

Please keep in mind that we're all Blood Bowl fans here, and to not attack others or call them names here. Please keep discussions civil and courteous.

Maybe that was the "General ''you". πŸ˜‰