Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again :-(

I really like so many things about this game, but most likely I give up and stop playing the game. When you play a team it SHOULD become more and more fun, not to see your beloved stars beat to pulp if you don't concede at a certain TV. And this could be fixed by adding a Cabalvision resurrection leauge with spp and money gain.

But as VoodooMike pointed out: Somebody are afraid that this leauge will be more popular than the others... ? and will take the fun away from making grief teams to kill the fun for guys like me.

And as I found out, you can meet killstacks already at TV 1380. Just sad really 😞 And this is actually the most random thing about Blood bowl 2 at the moment. Who you will run into when you press search. Removing the worst grief coaches would at least make the championship interesting for me. But High Master Chef dode74 don't think so, gg! and thanks for all the fish...

last edited by Hotdogchef

@hotdogchef said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

I really like so many things about this game, but most likely I give up and stop playing the game. When you play a team it SHOULD become more and more fun, not to see your beloved stars beat to pulp if you don't concede at a certain TV.

Sorry, but you seem to miss idea of the game completely. BB was developed to be either a short-term competition event (like tournament, or a season-long play session with reset at the end of the season, perhaps with Rez added), or a long-term perpetual league which never ends, where you can't "win the game". It's called "fantasy football manager" for a reason - your "player" is the team itself, your franchise, and not any specific star in your roster. Like in a real football team, your star can leave your club at the end of a contract, or get trauma and end their career (and you probably know that in latest BB rules by GW there is now a Redrafting mechanics which adds additional attrition to experienced players, now in a uniform way, so even Dwarfes and Chaos are affected and it become very hard to maintain your stars after 3-4 seasons, you are forced to constantly rotate your roster). Your team may become a top team of the League for a couple of seasons, then drop to the depth of the table due to unlucky event or bad management - again, like in real football world. The only difference is that's a chaotic, insane, violent fantasy football, of course 🙂

It's not a MMO in a slightest where you can get to "high lv content" and feel like you accomplished something. It's just season after season, champ after champ endless grind with a lot of excitement and frustration. And especially as a agi/hybrid team's coach you must be ready to often bury your teams and create a new ones - as it's the part of their deal, they play the ball much better than others, yet can't suck in punches that good.

last edited by Mori-Mori

@hotdogchef said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

But as VoodooMike pointed out: Somebody are afraid that this leauge will be more popular than the others... ? and will take the fun away from making grief teams to kill the fun for guys like me.

Careful about expanding what I said into something I did NOT say... I don't think its about people who want to engage in griefing not wanting people to leave their full attrition leagues - I think it's people who simply do not like rez not wanting their preferred full-attrition environments being emptied of all the casual players who would prefer a rez environment. When I say they want people to stomp on I mean "beat in matches" not "grief with cpomb" or whatever you imagine it means.

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

It's not a MMO in a slightest where you can get to "high lv content" and feel like you accomplished something.

Games are whatever people want to make of them. We know from years of discussion on various forums that there are plenty of people who DO want to make it all about team development and consider individual matches to be less important than progress toward the goal of their ideal team... telling those folks "you're doing it wrong" is unproductive - people set their own goals. The real question is why is it such a big f'n issue to accommodate them? Long-term development people are inherently long-term participants in a playerbase... so what's the benefit of constantly alienating them beyond a small core of "we're the real spirit of BB" jackasses patting each other on the back?

Focus and Cyanide completely dropped the ball on that - they clearly wanted to sell periodic DLC but focused on appeasing the player demographic that hates their business model while ignoring the folks who would be most likely to buy into it. I bet they'll do that again with BB3, too.

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

The real question is why is it such a big f'n issue to accommodate them?

I believe the reason may be quite close to what you said yourself before - they need to consider potential that any kind of "attrition-less safespace" in form of official Rez league has potential to suck out a lot of coaches from main official leagues, dropping online which is not that good atm already. There is also the associated overhead related to developing a special perpetual environment without attrition, which yet makes sense and feels balanced somehow (as you can expect it becoming agility teams' safe heaven very soon), and you seem to be presenting good arguments in the other topic regarding why developing new mechanics may not be as simple as it looks like on the surface, from a developer's perspective 😉 It may be just a matter of ROI - how numerous are those who needs all those special conditions to enjoy BB, how much they are actually willing to pay for a DLC with this feature, how to deliver them this feature in a way consistent with other modes of play, yet by ensuring Cyanide will get paid for this additional development overhead invested etc.

last edited by Mori-Mori

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

I believe the reason may be quite close to what you said yourself before - they need to consider potential that any kind of "attrition-less safespace" in form of official Rez league has potential to suck out a lot of coaches from main official leagues, dropping online which is not that good atm already.

If it pulls out the majority of people then you simply replace COL with a rez version of itself and leave CCL as is, unless it also pulls people out of CCL en masse in which case you replace CCL with a rez version of itself too. Given the nearly 10 years of attrition complaints I'd say this isn't as tough a calculation as you're claiming. Remember that when something "sucks out" coaches its because they prefer it enough that they're willing to abandon the old environment.

There's also the elephant in the room at the end of that quoted section - asking why its "not that good atm already". Permanent attrition is not what most gamers expect in modern games, and whether or not we agree with that expectation or share it, giving gamers something more punishing than they expect is likely to turn them sour on the game. I'm willing to bet BB2's future on the idea that we lose fewer anti-rez people with its introduction than we're losing people who don't like permanent attrition from the numbers of new coaches who have no past BB experience.

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

you seem to be presenting good arguments in the other topic regarding why developing new mechanics may not be as simple as it looks like on the surface, from a developer's perspective

Rez and progression are already implemented in BB2. If anything, it was more work to remove progression when rez is on than it would have been NOT to do that. They just need to go back and undo that.

@hotdogchef said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

your beloved stars

Here's the issue. You're attached to your players. A Rez league would work for you.

In my opinion thinking a bash team that initially plays to remove players and not handle the ball is only used for griefing is incorrect. That's what bash teams normally need to do to win.

And such a team with 42 matches and an even number of wins and losses sounds like a coach who is about average playing their team using a reasonable strategy. As a coach who has played skaven a lot I understand the frustration when you lose a bunch of players early in the match. I also understand that a bash team wouldn't have much of a chance to win the match if they couldn't remove my players from the pitch.

While guys like this are pretty annoying to play against it's bloodbowl. You will face murder teams who don't care about the ball. Even more so in the ladder.

My first recommendation would be to join an organised league. A team like his would not thrive and so is rare. Secondly don't stress about playing teams like this and as others have said appreciate playing a "light" team you are going to have deaths and casualties. This should be part of the fun challenge of playing them. If you don't like this aspect it's better to play a fighty team.

Another point his claws are pretty redundant vs your team. So he is giving away thousands into to you there.

Another point. If this is the player I'm thinking off he's not a great player and can be beaten. I watched a stream last night where a guy beat him 2-0 as he doesn't even bother much with the ball.

Finally don't worry about deaths in these games. They are actually quite rare, so are injuries. So if you bought an extra apo you can survive. Also with skaven you can outplay them even with 7 or so players. Never give in. I had a recent league game where I think 3 of my players were knocked out first go. And my opponent scored on my drive. I still won 2-1 so in bloodbowl never give up.

I find the best way to play is to have a laugh and role play. Skaven are meant to die a lot. You can't play them if you don't like this aspect. It's like being an elf. They are the best bloodbowl players but have the shortest lifespans.

Hope that helps some.

@voodoomike said:

The real question is why is it such a big f'n issue to accommodate them? Long-term development people are inherently long-term participants in a playerbase... so what's the benefit of constantly alienating them beyond a small core of "we're the real spirit of BB" jackasses patting each other on the back?

I can only speculate but isn't that because Games Workshop sets the rules? In most Warhammer games that I have seen (save for "Dawn of War" series, but it started as an RTS video game and wasn't just a conversion that had to follow some pre-existing tabletop rules) there is a huge emphasis on lethality/mortality and RNG aspects. There are many clues in-game that point out to the brutal nature of Blood Bowl ("the clue is in the name"), so having teams that rely on fouling/injuring opponents in order to gain advantage shouldn't come as a surprise, nor should the perma-death element of the game.

Being brutal for the sake of being bruta shouldn't be the point. The point is winning a match itself, which can be done only by scoring touchdowns. However, you have to realize that for some teams this can be done by injurying/killing/fouling the opposition. With less players on the board it's easier to get the ball across the field. There are other things worth considering: such as doing as much damage as possible in order to have better chances next time you have to play against that team. Or to force enemy coach to not stall his unstoppable touchdown as his players get punished for that.

But I will admit that it's surprisingly easy to get many injuries, even during normal blocks.

It was especially shocking to me as it happened to occur during the Campaign match against Orcs, where I was aiming to foul their Black Orcs in order to get rid of them, while also accomplishing the challenge objective ("get 3 fouls"). As it turned out - both Black Orcs were either injured or died during standard block actions against my mostly unkilled human team and fouls became more of a formality rather than a tool I expected them to be when I started that match.

@holy said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

I can only speculate but isn't that because Games Workshop sets the rules?

No. GW doesn't much care what Cyanide does with the game as evidenced by the fact that Cyanide has casually added non-GW rosters and rules (like stadium upgrades) as well as declared it has no interest in updating BB2 to the latest GW ruleset for Blood Bowl.

Likewise, Cyanide has already implemented Rez, and had stated the intention to have progression as an option but only a totally new form of progression... and then they didn't get around to adding it before LE's release. So it's not a matter of them not wanting to have rez, or not wanting to have rez with progression, or not being allowed to do those things... it's just some bizarre opposition to rez with normal SPP progression, and that's mostly something you see old players championing on merit of "we mostly don't see that, so it must be evil".

Once upon a time Cyanide tried to use "GW won't let us" as an excuse (for not including Chaos Dwarfs in one of the BB1 editions) at which point a GW rep posted to the forums saying it was categorically untrue. They've never fielded that excuse since.

@holy said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

In most Warhammer games that I have seen (save for "Dawn of War" series, but it started as an RTS video game and wasn't just a conversion that had to follow some pre-existing tabletop rules) there is a huge emphasis on lethality/mortality and RNG aspects.

Its not death and injury during matches that is the issue at hand, it's permanent death and injury... and you don't see those in most Warhammer (fantasy or 40k) video games. Your character wasn't deleted in Warhammer Online when you died... You don't lose all your equipment when you die in a game of Vermintide. Opting to have permanent team damage in BB2 is a choice.. and an unusual one even for GW video games.

I don't fault them for defaulting to how the TT works in general, but I find it bizarre that they're so against rez with normal progression when that's exactly what people who have never played the TT game will be expecting.

@voodoomike said:

Its not death and injury during matches that is the issue at hand, it's permanent death and injury... and you don't see those in most Warhammer (fantasy or 40k) video games. Your character wasn't deleted in Warhammer Online when you died... You don't lose all your equipment when you die in a game of Vermintide. Opting to have permanent team damage in BB2 is a choice.. and an unusual one even for GW video games.

I guess I have played different games based on Warhammer franchise, hence the difference in perspective. In "Mordeim: City of the Damned" perma-death and perma-injuries are present. You can lose units easily in melee in "Space Hulk: Ascension", so I was expecting Blood Bowl 2 to simply follow the theme.

Still, if the problem lies in permanent death and injuries, then why not take a simpler course: instead of introducing some strange "rez system" why not make Apothecary actions way cheaper, so it's more affordable to re-roll when you get perma-injuries and deaths as results on the pitch?

@holy said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Still, if the problem lies in permanent death and injuries, then why not take a simpler course: instead of introducing some strange "rez system" why not make Apothecary actions way cheaper, so it's more affordable to re-roll when you get perma-injuries and deaths as results on the pitch?

Rez is not some "strange" system, it's what the majority of TT Blood Bowl tournaments run under - its the standard setup for NAF sanctioned tournaments. In fact, it's already implemented in Blood Bowl 2, they just attached the removal of SPP gain and such to its use. The point is "why make those two things a mandatory pairing?" or more specifically "why do they constantly get in the way of providing people the option we know new coaches generally expect?"

Rez affects long-term attrition equally across all rosters. Apothecary changes do not. Making apothecaries cheaper, or letting people have more of them, more heavily benefits teams that take fewer casualties - and those teams are already far more heavily represented in online play than the alternatives, because those are the teams that inflict those casualties as well.

You're coming into a topic that is more than 8 years into discussions... I assure you any "simple" ideas you might come up with have almost certainly already been discussed at length.

I see. Thanks for clarification.

Well, then it's indeed puzzling why they are not converting the whole game to that. I mean, if players can still get injuried during the course of a match, then the team that hits harder still gets the advantage they need to score a touchdown, meaning kicking your opponent's players would retain tactical value without decimating the roster.

@holy said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Well, then it's indeed puzzling why they are not converting the whole game to that. I mean, if players can still get injuried during the course of a match, then the team that hits harder still gets the advantage they need to score a touchdown, meaning kicking your opponent's players would retain tactical value without decimating the roster.

Exactly - it doesn't change the game at the match level, it only changes the between-matches game. Some people think it would lead to changes in play style as coaches would focus less on protecting their players or injuring players and more on scoring goals... that doesn't sound like a bad thing to me.

The issue people cite is that without a form of attrition the teams can grow forever. While that is indeed a possibility, there are other off-pitch system that can deal with that while still applying evenly to all rosters (ageing, BB2016's seasons, etc). Likewise, the average number of games played by a team in BB2 is so pathetically low that the idea of people playing hundreds of games to reach that overdevelopment level is a bit of a pipe dream.

Either way, I hope they get around to removing all the obstacles someday. As I say... it has almost been a decade... and BB2:LE is the closest we've gotten.

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

I don't fault them for defaulting to how the TT works in general, but I find it bizarre that they're so against rez with normal progression when that's exactly what people who have never played the TT game will be expecting.

The reason for this is most likely the same as for them sticking to all those their questionable "tweaks" to original mechanics for years (optionality of skills' usage, roster changes etc). They need to ensure a reasonable online in default leagues as it's where most of newcomers will end up, and as any commercial company they tend to cut their spendings, to get some profits out of it. So they just try to avoid any changes which are not direly necessary and/or enrage and puts off too much people. So here is the question: how many people are actually being put off specifically due permadeth rule, and this rule alone? Won't it happen to solve nothing as after it's done they will still find another thing to be irritated about? It's already there - there are a lot of complaints about the fact that due to the nature of the game sometimes you may become severely disadvantaged in the first half already, and lose incentive to spend next 1,5 hours as the situation "doesn't seem fair". This won't be solved by the Rez alone.

So, in the end, you (Cyanide) spend some efforts, but those who just doesn't like the general vibe of BB still leave, unless you agree to redraft the game completely to meet their expectations. And the later is very.. questionable approach, on itself. There are games out there which stay quite popular for a while already because they don't follow a more casual playerbase's expectations, Eve Online to name one.

last edited by Mori-Mori

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

They need to ensure a reasonable online in default leagues as it's where most of newcomers will end up, and as any commercial company they tend to cut their spendings, to get some profits out of it. So they just try to avoid any changes which are not direly necessary and/or enrage and puts off too much people.

Again, let me point out that rez and progression are both already in the game, which means it took additional work to disable progression when rez is being used, so the idea that they haven't done so because its too much work makes very little sense. If they were taking the lazy approach we would have expected to see rez with progression.

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

So here is the question: how many people are actually being put off specifically due permadeth rule, and this rule alone?

I'm not sure... how often do we see people complaining about their teams being wrecked by bash teams? How often are the matchmaking gripes related to facing bash teams that ruin the complainant's team in an "unfair" match? Where does team damage being a component of a complaint rank on your list of top 10 most frequent complaints being made by newer coaches?

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Won't it happen to solve nothing as after it's done they will still find another thing to be irritated about? It's already there - there are a lot of complaints about the fact that due to the nature of the game sometimes you may become severely disadvantaged in the first half already, and lose incentive to spend next 1,5 hours as the situation "doesn't seem fair". This won't be solved by the Rez alone.

We know that permanent team damage, on some level or another, is a key component of a large portion of complaints we've seen over the years. It's not that people necessarily say "I want no team damage", but the long-term attrition aspect factors into their complaints quite often. So, we know its a thing... you think there will be other things in future... well, maybe, but I'll take addressing a known thing to worrying about things you think might happen, but can't put your finger on.

Again, I'm not saying lets make ALL of BB2 rez... I'm saying we should have the option to do rez with progression.. and if people take to it, we should either convert COL to that, or run a second similar league beside it. It's not going to make our situation worse, and it has serious potential to make it better.

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

So, in the end, you (Cyanide) spend some efforts, but those who just doesn't like the general vibe of BB still leave, unless you agree to redraft the game completely to meet their expectations. And the later is very.. questionable approach, on itself.

You're just fielding a slippery slope argument based on assumption you can't support. There's a reason they're considered a logical fallacy.

In the Cabalvision open leauge 12 of the 20 top teams got teams with claws and damage combos related to claws. Anybody wonder why?

We seriously need a res leauge with spp and money gain, a Cabalvision leauge. Not interested to play in a 10 team leauge... sorry.

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

Again, let me point out that rez and progression are both already in the game, which means it took additional work to disable progression when rez is being used, so the idea that they haven't done so because its too much work makes very little sense

You asked why they seem to be so not in favor of it, and I pointed out the most probable cause. The fact they still invested some time into it does not necessarily means they changed their mind. The fact that it's there only after 2 years actually should provide a hint they may not see it as an important or good feature. And regarding why they can't complete it now, when it's already almost there (if you want me to guess again): after they contributed some time developing it, it become apparent that it's not enough again, and some additional work required which wasn't planned before. As it's still not on their top priority list perhaps, it may take some time to polish it.

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

I'm not sure... how often do we see people complaining about their teams being wrecked by bash teams? How often are the matchmaking gripes related to facing bash teams that ruin the complainant's team in an "unfair" match? Where does team damage being a component of a complaint rank on your list of top 10 most frequent complaints being made by newer coaches?

The correct answer is "nobody knows atm", including Cyanide. What we see here is some vocal minority which cares enough to create a topic, it's not forum very popular by majority of BB players. Steam forums, or, even better, Steam reviews are a bit more solid pools of opinions to drag some conclusions from, and as a guy who've spent some time going through negative reviews there, I can say destruction of a team is not concern even of majority of them. Lack of proper SP and bad AI, and the usual "too much randomness/no skill needed/too much cash grabbing" thingies are. I'm feeling really weird being the one reminding The @VoodooMike himself about the importance of correctly constructed representative sample here 😉 I surely can understand how being that much of a public figure on a selfless campaign of rooting out logical fallacies and statistical illiteracy in this neighborhood you may miss one or two under your own bed. If you can be interested in hiring a personal assistant to help with housekeeping, I have some openings in my schedule 😉

@voodoomike said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

You're just fielding a slippery slope argument based on assumption you can't support. There's a reason they're considered a logical fallacy.

The fact you keep treading along verges of slippery slopes hardly has something to do with me. May be you should start checking your steps more closely to not slide on one 😉 Unless life in a Rez has bored you to such extent you subconsciously crave for a thrill of riding it 😉

last edited by Mori-Mori

@hotdogchef:

In the Cabalvision open leauge 12 of the 20 top teams got teams with claws and damage combos related to claws. Anybody wonder why?

You made me curious. I will try to specifically form an anti-hitting team when I create my team for Cabalvision Official League and see how badly it goes.

@mori-mori said in Killing the fun, likely I stop playing again 😞:

You asked why they seem to be so not in favor of it, and I pointed out the most probable cause.

It was a rhetorical question. I wasn't actually interested in your random speculation on the topic. Sorry if I didn't make that clear.

Given that you're not part of their team, literally everything else you're saying is totally irrelevant so... thanks, but moving right along...