Persistent Enemy Gangs

This has been discussed elsewhere, but I believe it warrants its own topic.

So in concept this is a simple thing, something I believe would greatly benefit the immersion factor of the game would be for a number of enemy gangs during the campaign are tracked by the game so that they are a persistent foe. One that grows, that you can cause lasting harm to, that tries to take your territory(assuming that's an aspect of the game) and can steal your stuff and use it. Much like your own gang, there should be enemies that decisions, losses, wounds and deaths matter in the long term, in large part because it crafts a personal narrative for each player.

As for how it should work, the basic aspect is the same sort of randomly generated gang should happen, except it is saved and tracked much like your own gang.

Now that leads to other questions, some of which I have no answers to. Such as how hard that is to do, how many gangs could potentially be tracked, and how it could track enemy gang progress outside of its battles with you.

My answer, without knowing any of the technical requirements, is that there could be a mixed model. Each of the other Houses should have at least 1 persistent gang, but to me having only 6 gangs active in the Underhive at a time sounds a bit underpopulated, therefore they could also have randomly generated gangs for single scenarios that you would also square off with. That way you do have interesting rivals, but there's also a sense of scale, with random gangs passing through. Of course if it's possible the higher amount of persistent gangs the better.

And of course if you ever diminish a gang to the point they can no longer fight, for example by killing them all, they're simply replaced by a new randomly generated gang.

I would point to the recent releases of Blood Bowl (specifically BB2) as a fairly successful example of persistent "enemies", since Blood Bowl teams and Necromunda gangs from a technical point of view aren't that different: a limited number of personnel, permanent injuries, and simulation of a complex game interaction for all the AI teams between rounds.

Yeah, same concept.There's also Shadow of Mordor/War with tracking multiple individual foes basically in real time. It's possible, but the question is how difficult and how many numbers. I didn't end up getting Blood Bowl, how many teams did it track at a time?

As for Shadow of Mordor, it bears keeping in mind that the download is an absolute beast, takes a lot of memory so I assume it's a rather complex system, but it has certain aspects that would could be converted to a game like this. Namely how it tracked the Orc's activities on the map.

@detortor said in Persistent Enemy Gangs:

Yeah, same concept.There's also Shadow of Mordor/War with tracking multiple individual foes basically in real time. It's possible, but the question is how difficult and how many numbers. I didn't end up getting Blood Bowl, how many teams did it track at a time?

Not quite sure how many teams it tracks, but I think for the maximum size league it's easily around the 100 mark (I wanna say 128, but I'm guessing here). I do have it (it's even installed) but haven't played much lately - just too many bugs and limitations, and the developer is not interested in fixing them (they'd rather sell DLC).

At 100 I'd definately concede the random aspect would be unnecessary. Half that would be fine, though I'm not sure what a minimum would be for making the Underhive feel properly contested.

I'd think this would be harder, depending how the campaign works. Blood Bowl is more straightforward with matches, but this is to have multiple mission types, and hopefully territory has a meaningful representation in game.

Thinking logically, the under hive is a cramped space (lore wise). So the amount of persistent gangs would depend on the size of area that rogue factor are thinking of setting the game in. I would hazard a guess that between 15-20 persistent gangs vying for territory. These could represent established gangs, and then we could have random gangs to add scope, representing smaller gangs trying to gain a foothold.

It would entirely depend on how big the area is for sure. 15-20 would be a fairly small area I'd think. Keep in mind that the gangs are official unofficial proxy soldiers for House warfare, and each House would control millions, of not billions of people in Hive Primus alone in their normal Hive holdings.

You make a good point @DeTortor. However, In the original lore, the underhive is massive. I mean the size of multiple cities. It felt, in my opinion, that most gangs had large territories, which spread out through things like domes and settlements. So if the game is based on, say, a city sized area I could imagine only about 15-20 large gangs controlling the city.

Well, yes and no. You may be referring to the Houses themselves, who are certainly the mega gangs, but what I got out of the lore was that individual gangs are more like cliques, but these smaller gangs are mostly independent of eachother. There's a larger association between them but each crew is more like 15-20 members centered around a leader, with a some bigger ones here and there. Hard to say since in the stories I read they didn't really get into specific number counts, though some did sound rather large. Don't know if you read Fleshworks, but I think the antagonist there probably had members in the 100's. Admittedly I think I may be trying to get too specific, but the lot's of smaller, loosely associated gangs part I think is accurate.

In any case, we're almost certainly going to be controlling these smaller crews in the game. Although I think 15-20 would be an acceptable amount, I think that area would have many more gangs than that.

Of course then there's the question of if diplomacy could or should be a thing.

With regard to diplomacy, apart from negotiating for a return of a hostage, I'm not sure it's, either, a) lore friendly or b) game friendly. However, inter gang trades might be a good idea too put in. I could work well, at random points an offer of stash or equipment could be made by a rival gang. Plus you could also offer a trade to a rival. I also think that a similar thing could work for hostage negotiations, one gang could offer a set amount of stuff for the release. It's either paid, or they could try and rescue the hostage. This way there are two possible mission you can go on. 1) hostage rescue, 2) hostage defence. If you successfully defend then you can choose to kill, recruit (if gang types are the same) or sell to pit slavers.

Of course then there's the question of if diplomacy could or should be a thing.

Is this Total War warhammer? I mean, i don't mind diplomacy (or bribing orther gangs so they don't whoop your tushie wushie) as long as it's done right.

I believe it would be more of a parley

leaning more towards a profitable deal between warring gangs rather than outright diplomacy

also kind of like bribing the ref in blood bowl

Well, yeah. Diplomacy os sugarcoating it a lot. Like dropping a ton of sugar on it.

But still, i like the idea. That sometimes you will get a message from another gang who asks for a ceasfire and "invites you" to attack a much stronger gang in order to weaken their grip in the area.

As well, i want bribery and for it to be kinda active. Like for example, sometimes stronger gangs will knock at your door and demand money from you or else they will start attacking you.

I know how it sounds on the surface, it's certainly not something represented in the TT, however it is represented in the lore. Gangs can have rivals in their own Houses that are in different gangs, or they can work with each other. Naturally the politics would look different than diplomacy between nations, so yes it's perhaps not the right word for it. Forming a pact to take down a stronger rival, demanding protection money/tribute, ordering around a smaller gang, these kinds of things are completely within the realm of Necromunda the setting. It was just an idea to float, because if there are persistent gangs the question comes of if every interaction with them should be fighting or if there should be more to it. I mean if you've checked out some of the updated lore they've pushed the idea that the Houses despite being rivals are also largely interdependent on eachother, something that means potential for non-hostile interactions between individual gangs. It made more sense in Mordhiem for there to be no for lack of a better word diplomacy, because the hatred was more severe and some weren't even the same species, but on Necromunda they're all human, technically Imperial, and their Houses have to work together.

Now as for an example from the lore, there's the story of Junkion where the Settlement was in dire straights so they hired multiple gangs to guard the place, Goliath and Cawdor, but Goliath angered an Escher gang when they robbed them at the gate and they ended up teaming up with a gang of Orlocks to attack the town.

Which also bring up, what about settlements? Whether or not you thing interactions between gangs should go beyond the barrel of a gun, there's plenty of towns, some major, most minor, scattered in the Underhive. I think they should be more than say Mordhiem where the extent of your interaction was selling them Wyrdstone. Here there's an opportunity to do things like guard the place, or just force them to send you tribute, or if the town thinks they can take you they can put a bounty on your gang.

That kinda reminds me that Orlock and Delaque houses have a never ending rivalry over several assasinations and that makes them bitter enemies that don't even make business with each other. As well, the Escher house despises with all their soul Goliaths. These things could come into play if "Diplomacy" is integrated since the long standing feuds between houses are bound to make some things harder and some easier for you.

Also, when you talk about putting a bounty on your gang... Are you talking about being outlawed? Because being the enemy of a gang and being the enemy of the Guilders is very different. For those who don't know, Guilders are the bridge between the hive above and the Underhive. Wealthy traders who bring all sorts of goods and weapons for anyone willing to pay, as well as selling valuables only found in the Underhive in the Hive above, suck as various minerals, Mung vases, Archeotech and Spider eyes, a priced gemstone taken from the Giant Spiders in the Underhive.

The Guilders are kinda like the "law" in the underhive, but in the sense of that they create the law. The actual enforcement comes in the form of several gangs which want to claim the bounty on your head. Many laws of the Underhive are fairly simple and only apply to settlements, since outside the walls it's the wild west. But some laws are general and usually the punishment for breaking them is being outlawed (Killing a guilder, stealing from them...). Outlaw gangs don't have territory, cannot trade or buy and can't reinforce their ranks (or at least the rulebook said that).

I think Outlaw gangs could be introduced as sometimes as "randomly generated gang" that appear in some missions instead of the gangs that have territory.

last edited by Glarghface

I love those ideas @DeTortor. I just hope that the devs are listening. Also I hope that it's an easy thing to implement.

@glarghface Well there's a couple things to note there, the Delaque/Orlock feud is more recent, but certainly is a valid point. But it's more like a generation old than an ancient rivalry, Delaque's assassinated the last Orlock House Leader after the Orlocks sabotaged one of their contracts. Point being, it's a fresh conflict rather than deeply ingrained. Should definitely be considered if they do this regardless. Also, you're absolutely right that Escher and Goliath hate each other. However, the new TT lore is expanding on the interdependence of the Houses. Escher is the Hive's drug and cham dealers basically, so despite their hatred, Goliath actually buy most of their growth stimms from Escher, and presumably Escher has to buy some raw materials from Goliath.

Now I wasn't talking about being Outlawed, more this one settlement has an issue with you and they are offering a bounty. The difference being that Outlawed means all towns shun you and want you dead, bounty means one does. But I do also hope Outlawing is either a thing to begin with, or makes its way in later with groups like Scaavies and Ratskin Renegades.

But yeah no, I wasn't referring to the law of the Underhive, just the "someone is offering money for your head" part that would be most of the Bounty Hunter's work. But the "law" is another thing.

@adam_rush29 Yeah, there's a least a little bit of attention paid, at least in the Welcome Area section, we can only hope there's some possibility of influence, but I know I have little idea of how difficult it is to program. Nothing is going to be strictly easy, but I think some ideas are worth it.

@DeTortor, I'm thinking of starting a post to thank the devs for all their hard work. I think it'd be nice to encourage them with praise. Cos mostly we're all just trying to suggest ideas for them. Maybe if we shower them with thanks, they might just think about our ideas. 😂

We can only hope they take note of the things we want and even if they can't do everything, at least they consider the ideas to be good. Devs did an amazing work with Mordheim and i think we all want an improved version of Mordheim, much more improved and polished.

Even if our suggestions aren't taken word by word, we can point them in the right direction

Yes, a verbatim implementation would be way to much to hope for, especially since I doubt many us have a great understanding of upper level programming, but I do hope as they plan the game they at least mull over some of the ideas that fans, myself included, have presented. But yes, a direction is all we can realistically hope for.

Of the two, Settlement interaction is more something I'd like to see. The lore has several rather major Settlements (Dust Falls, Glory Hole, and Junkion) that I really hope are going to be included, and they can just make up some more since there's always going to be new settlements and old ones going away. These three, primarily Dust Falls, are just a couple mostly permanent ones. I'd like to see ways we can interact with them besides sending resources for creds.

You could treat the settlements like an RPG hub. You could walk your leader round the settlement going to various NPC's for say trade, missions, recruitment of gang members and hired guns. The standing in the town could change depending on a) which house it affiliates to ( which could change as the game goes) and b) your reputation with that house. For instance, if you played as a Goliath gang then you'd never be welcome in an escher affiliated settlement. It mean also, missions to either take control of a settlement or defend one. That could also play into the reputation thing, whereby if too much damage is done you reputation will suffer.

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