**Blitz , catch and RR**

Hi guys ,
I need another clarification.
I am in defense , Blitz kick off happens. I managed to KO the player under the ball and replace him with my own. The events finishes and i try to catch the ball . I fail but no RR is offer ( i have 3 left) . Is it normal doctor?

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

That's correct and was bugged to be incorrect up to LE (i.e. previously you were incorrectly able to use a TRR). The ball falls after your turn is over and you can only use a TRR in your own turn. The Catch skill, however, can by used.

thank you
It is confusing sometime to follow the "subtilities" of the logic of the game .

So let me push the logic further . I have a cluster of players around a ball, if i try to pick up the ball and fail , if the ball bounce on an opponent square and he fails to catch it , he can not RR , but it bounce back on one my player square and i fail again i am allowed to RR ? Is it correct ?

last edited by dragonloup

@dragonloup said in **Blitz , catch and RR**:

I have a cluster of players around a ball, if i try to pick up the ball and fail , if the ball bounce on an opponent square and he fails to catch it , he can not RR , but it bounce back on one my player square and i fail again i am allowed to RR ? Is it correct ?

As @dode74 already explained, the decisive factor is whose turn it is atm. TRRs (afaicr) may only be used during your own turn. So as your turn is immediately ended in case of turn over, you won't be able to use TRR in the described case. At this point it's sort of neither player's turn.

last edited by Mori-Mori
BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

@dragonloup said in **Blitz , catch and RR**:

So let me push the logic further . I have a cluster of players around a ball, if i try to pick up the ball and fail , if the ball bounce on an opponent square and he fails to catch it , he can not RR , but it bounce back on one my player square and i fail again i am allowed to RR ? Is it correct ?

From the rulebook on turnovers:

A coach that suffers a turnover is not allowed to take any further
Actions that turn, and any Action being taken ends immediately
even if it was only partially completed. Make armour and injury
rolls for players that were knocked down, and if the ball was
dropped then roll to see where it bounces to normally. Stunned
players should be turned face up, and then the opposing coach
may start to take his turn.

So the Action of the player ends, armour rolls etc happen, the ball bounces and settles, and then the opponent's turn starts. Since your turn has not ended (contrary to Mori-Mori's statement only the Action ends immediately) until your opponent's turn starts you can use a TRR to reroll the catch roll, and since your opponent's turn is yet to start he cannot use a TRR.

Thanks, @dode74 , interesting. I've got too accustomed to phrasing like this (from the new rulebook, but that phrasing was used in CRP as well, I believe):

alt text

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Is it your interpretation, or it's some uniform agreement how to interpret it in TT community ? Do you know whether it was clarified at some point by rules' designers or NAF officials may be? It all looks a bit ambiguous.

last edited by Mori-Mori
BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

What I posted was the wording from CRP copied and pasted from the last paragraph on turnovers. The interpretation is as I stated it from reading people like Galak and DoubleSkulls (former BBRC) on TFF: the turn ends once everything has been resolved. It's not undebated, but I think former BBRC are a good source for clarification on this.

The NAF has a clarifications page for some things, but it doesn't cover everything ofc.

@dode74 said in

So the Action of the player ends, armour rolls etc happen, the ball bounces and settles, and then the opponent's turn starts. Since your turn has not ended (contrary to Mori-Mori's statement only the Action ends immediately) until your opponent's turn starts you can use a TRR to reroll the catch roll, and since your opponent's turn is yet to start he cannot use a TRR.

So my interpretation was correct but somehow i do not think the game behave like that . Can anyone confirm that BB2 only allow the player playing the turn to use a RR for a catch ? I kind of have the feeling from past game that both players can try to RR to catch the ball but i may be mistaken .

last edited by dragonloup

@dode74 said:

Since your turn has not ended (contrary to Mori-Mori's statement only the Action ends immediately) until your opponent's turn starts you can use a TRR to reroll the catch roll, and since your opponent's turn is yet to start he cannot use a TRR.

Unless I am mistaken when you fail to catch the ball and you don't use team re-roll then and there it doesn't matter what happens with the ball afterwards as you have effectively failed to catch the ball, thus causing the turnover, even if by chance it bounces off an enemy who fails to catch it himself and bounces it back to one of your own players.

last edited by Holy

@holy said in

Unless I am mistaken when you fail to catch the ball and you don't use team re-roll then and there

@ Holy
I think you are missing the entire point of this thread. The access to RR or not for a catch during a blitz .You seems to work on the assumption you have access to it in the first place

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

@holy said in **Blitz , catch and RR**:

Unless I am mistaken when you fail to catch the ball and you don't use team re-roll then and there it doesn't matter what happens with the ball afterwards as you have effectively failed to catch the ball, thus causing the turnover, even if by chance it bounces off an enemy who fails to catch it himself and bounces it back to one of your own players.

Yes, the turnover is caused, but a turnover means that the Action ends and the rolls are resolved as per the paragraph from LRB6 I quoted above. Your actual turn doesn't end until that is all complete.

As an example, imagine the situation where you drop the ball (for whatever reason) and you have an adjacent player in the opponent's endzone. The ball bounces and that player catches the ball. It's a TD, clearly, but is it a TD in your turn or your opponent's turn?
Now imagine that happens on your T16, and it's the last T16 of the half. If it wasn't still your turn then there wouldn't be a TD scored since the match would be over, but it has been confirmed on TFF that a TD would be scored, and that it is therefore still your turn. Since it is still your turn then a TRR can be used until the ball comes to rest.

Though I see reason in the train of thought presented by @dode74 , just for the sake of keeping argument go on, I think I could object to this:

@dode74 said in **Blitz , catch and RR**:

Now imagine that happens on your T16, and it's the last T16 of the half. If it wasn't still your turn then there wouldn't be a TD scored since the match would be over, but it has been confirmed on TFF that a TD would be scored, and that it is therefore still your turn. Since it is still your turn then a TRR can be used until the ball comes to rest.

Are rules clearly forbid you from scoring past turn 16 in any way? But here is a scenario: as Wizard can be used right after your turn is ended, but can't be used during your opponent's turn, it means it's used in between turns in such case; so if a Lighting knocks down a ball-carrier standing near his opponent's endzone, surrounded by his (ball-carrier's) teammates then ball bounces and is caught by one of the teammates adjacent to the endzone - is this touchdown right away? Or we still need to wait till the start of the next turn before announce it? The rulebook doesn't seem to have a clear answer, neither it prohibits explicitly something like this. It describes 2 situations: TD on your turn, or on the opponent's turn, but doesn't say "no other way to TD is possible".

So, if we assume it's possible to TD between turns, why it's not possible to TD shortly after the turn 16 in scenario described by @dode74 ? So under that assumption the fact such TD (on turn 16) is possible alone doesn't anymore allow to do that conclusion:

@dode74 said in **Blitz , catch and RR**:

If it wasn't still your turn then there wouldn't be a TD scored since the match would be over

I.e. what actually does state you can't TD after your turn while you are still completing the mandatory procedures related to it, even if it's turn 16? You still have some procedures unresolved, despite the fact your turn is ended (bouncing the ball and resolving catches, perhaps some others), which, regardless of TO still needs to be attended, as usual.

Voila, I broke it all -]

last edited by Mori-Mori

@dragonloup said:

@ Holy
I think you are missing the entire point of this thread. The access to RR or not for a catch during a blitz .You seems to work on the assumption you have access to it in the first place

Sorry, I thought the second example was outside of the blitz kick-off event as you mention being "allowed to RR". During normal turns player has access to team re-rolls.

Finishing what I have started I will say this: it looks like I was wrong.

From the rulebook:

TURNOVERS
If a ball thrown by a player isn’tccaught by a player from the moving team, this causes a turnover and the moving team’s turn ends. The turnover does not take place until the ball finally comes to rest. This means that if the ball misses the target but is still caught by a player from the moving team, then a turnover does not take place.The ball could even scatter or bounce out of bounds, be thrown back into an empty square, and as long as it was caught by a player from the moving team then the turnover would be avoided!

My apologies.

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

@Mori-Mori - I brought up the TD example specifically because it has been clarified by the BBRC. The wizard example may well be the exception since the wizard is played after the turn specifically.

On a more general point, the "the rules don't say I can't do it" argument is deeply flawed. The rules don't say my BC can't teleport into your EZ, but neither of us would argue that he could and would infer as much from the rules. Similarly if the rules say you can score in your turn or your opponent's turn then it is reasonable to infer from the rules that those are the only times you can score.

@dode74 said in **Blitz , catch and RR**:

Similarly if the rules say you can score in your turn or your opponent's turn then it is reasonable to infer from the rules that those are the only times you can score.

But rules don't say you can score between turns either. You just assumed it may be an exception, as it's seems logical as well, i.e. you also draw a conclusion 😉

@dode74 said in **Blitz , catch and RR**:

I brought up the TD example specifically because it has been clarified by the BBRC

Was it explained in relation to the issue, or did they just confirmed scoring like this is possible without delving too much into reasons? Context may be important here. Is this discussion still around somewhere, at TFF, perhaps?

last edited by Mori-Mori
BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

I'm not the one saying you can score between turns, you are!

It was said with specific reference to turns and the discussion is on TFF.

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