Remove Pile on

I see also the very good player Jimmy Fantastic (he plays alot of chaos teams++ also) supports that pile on should be removed.

As I understand Pile on is not used in table top (just as nerfed optional rule), and that Cyanide made it permanent in BB2.

I just think Pile on just adds to the "flip some coins each and see who gets most heads" feeling I get on higher TV, and thats just really sad. The game has enough dmg as it is, without pile on.

last edited by Hotdogchef
BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

BB2 is played to CRP rules, not BB2016.

I want to quote Blacklightgames: "the General consensus for removing Pile On is basically boiling down to this: you down your opponent but don't injure him, then you stomp and get the injury. Like that is really op at high team value. Basically whoever gets to go first will always remove players turn 1. That really sucks tbh. Not to mention that it defines what you build on your blitzers. No reason to not go anything but block, mighty blow, claw, piling on, frenzy, and stand firm/sidestep/Juggernaut/Dodge. Tackle maybe. It's honestly really boring to have it come down to who has this one more, and can you remove this fucker on time? Tldr, it's icing on top of an already op build.ï»ż"

Comment: I strongly agree to remove pile on, or not be able to have mighty blow, claw and pile on togheter (much like frenzy and grab combo ban)

There are several options to make high TV play better (more skill less random):

  • Of course, give us a res Cabalvision league with spp and money gain

  • Remove pile on (the one with most claw, MB, pile on usually wins if he get the coin toss... this is just sad and not rewarding to develop teams, also bad for the general interest of the game, and this maybe Cyanide should think about??)

  • Change pile on so that it only can give KO, stun or no effect result

  • Make it impossible to have MB, claw and pile on togheter

  • Add a strength skill that reduce/removes claw effect (nullify or reduced effect: claw can only reduce armor by 1 and not below 7)

  • Limit the number of players on a team that can have full dmg combo to 2 (maybe the worst of the options, but had to add it)

  • Change claw skill to "Reduces armor by 2, but not below 7".... this would at least help halfings teams (treeman) or make armor upgrade for armor 9 teams more valid)

Please tell me which of them you support guys.

last edited by Hotdogchef

This has been discussed a lot before elsewhere and the idea that I always liked the best from those discussions was that "Pile-On" would be treated as a "both-down" action.

Hotdogchef: What do you think about that idea?

Having claw and/or mighty blow would then still give a huge advantage over someone who doesn't, so PO would not be a waste of a skill, but there would be some risk involved for the piling on player which seems cool to me.

It also just makes sense (if that matters at all) that jumping on top of someone would result in a armour roll for the guy jumping as well as the guy getting slammed.

My 5 cents: I also like the idea that once you take MB or Claw you cannot take the other, making you have to choose between pinching with crab claws (or slashing with claws) which offers armour piercing but limits the potential weight/power of the hit.

I mean, not being able to take grab and frenzy makes no sense other than to try and limit an otherwise very successful combo so why is claw/po/MB allowed to work so well together but frenzy/grab not?

Follow up: But being able to remove claw with a skill is not a good idea IMO since Claw is counter to high AV teams and a great balancing mechanic for low AV teams as it does nothing against a naked Norse. It is just that combining Claw with MB is a little too good because it works so well against everybody in every situation. If you could only get claw or mb then coaches would have to choose instead of going the no-brainer route of taking both or even if claws only worked on a blitz, like Juggernaut or something just to make them not very good all the time everywhere against everybody.

last edited by Lexingtond
BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

@hotdogchef said in Remove Pile on:

Please tell me which of them you support guys.

A rez league. Changes to the base game are not needed.

That said, there are two changes I would like to see tested:

  1. PO can only be used if one of the block dice is a POW result.
  2. +AV happens on a 9 roll and the modifier is not neutered by Claw, i.e. a claw player would require 9+ to break the armour of a player with +AV.

@lexingtond said in Remove Pile on:
It is just that combining Claw with MB is a little too good because it works so well against everybody in every situation. If you could only get claw or mb then coaches would have to choose instead of going the no-brainer route of taking both or even if claws only worked on a blitz, like Juggernaut or something just to make them not very good all the time everywhere against everybody.

I strongly support you! People like to develop their teams and also play at higher TV, and this will happen of course since this is a online game and you can play many games. It makes NO sense that you should hit a steel wall of flip coin death at a certain TV. Sorry but it's destructive for the game, the skill part of the game at least. Skill HAVE to matter also at higher TV, not only at lower. Common Cyanide, please??

dode74, well any of your suggestions would help... so I support them. But I really think something should be done about this dmg combo. lexingtonds suggestion is also really nice, I like it.

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

@hotdogchef said in Remove Pile on:

But I really think something should be done about this dmg combo.

Thing is, there's nothing inherently wrong with it. The game is balanced just fine with it and the data supports that. Rez league is the only addition required for those who don't like damage.

Piling On has a natural counter, it's called Fend. With Fend it's impossible to apply PO to you as they won't be adjacent to you after the block in most cases. The only skill that negates it is Juggernaut, but you don't see it that much on bash players, it mostly belongs to designated blitzers, often combined with Frenzy. So, instead of developing some gayish superstars from your elves and rats creating a perfect mutant superhero squad, designate one skill slot for their survival - consider giving this skill to at least the most valuable half of the team, your core positionals, the ones which almost never are deployed to LoS, give it to all of them. This will limit their exposure to PO significantly, and somewhat also will reducs amount of blocks from Frenzy players (though they often have Juggernaut). If you play in bash-heavy League on high TV, consider giving it to all your players, as well as getting more DP on them to gang-foul POers on occasion while they are lying on the pitch.

I agree with @dode74 , I like the idea of limiting it to the POW only. It's neat, simple and does slightly nerf it. Also liked other proposals voiced on TFF, like allowing to use it only as the second block on Frenzy sequence.

Edit:
Grab counters Fend as well. Though it's even more rare skill than Juggernaut.

last edited by Mori-Mori

@hotdogchef said in Remove Pile on:

It makes NO sense that you should hit a steel wall of flip coin death at a certain TV. Sorry but it's destructive for the game, the skill part of the game at least. Skill HAVE to matter also at higher TV, not only at lower.

There is no such thing as "steel wall of death", unless you are playing teams which are made/are kept to be weak on purpose (google for "blood bowl tiers") Statistics gathered for many years show that teams like elves, rats or even amazons (I was surprised by the latter recently, but seems so) - "squishy" teams - do from fairly well to great on higher TVs despite facing killers teams and developed bash teams. Elves and rats have higher winrate than those, they are most efficient teams in BB.

If you're experiencing a "steel wall" it's because your lack of skills. Normally you may occasionally see some unlucky events when your rats lose half of team dead in one match, or a lot of situation when in the 2nd half you are reduced to 4-5 players. Sometimes you may even decide it's easier to create a new team - but that's the part of their deal, and they actually can still score when outnumbered, unlike bashers. And if you're some dwarves or orc or chaos coach, then shame on you for even complaining about CPOMB.

last edited by Mori-Mori

As already mentioned, the guy that gets to go first can throw at least four blocks and start to remove players. Several guys with full dmg combo. In a few couple of turns the dmg count is so serious one team often concede. It's all down to the first few rounds of crazy dmg output and the match is over.

The dmg chance is so high that many describe it as "flip a coin" if your player leaves the pitch (often dead or permanent injury)... you have used tons of battles to get your team to the current state and then suddenly every attack is a luck fest to see if he gets permanently damaged. You deny this???

SKILL is not that important anymore. With full dmg combo on many players it's not skill that run the match anymore, just pure luckfest of some blocks. And this is kind of sad, development/customizing your team ++ everything is just ended in a full luck slaughter.

Each time I get my teams to a certain level I just sits with my fingers crossed when I search for a match.... BAM ... chaos or similar team with TV 400-450 higher appears and ruins my record and players if I stand to fight.

Removing pile on, which many good Blood bowl players also support highly, is at least a step to reduce this "flip a coin" win feeling at least I got now...

I also think many coaches would stay in the game if they can continue and develop their teams, not stop at a certain TV every time...

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

You overstate the case.

The dmg chance is so high that many describe it as "flip a coin" if your player leaves the pitch (often dead or permanent injury)... you have used tons of battles to get your team to the current state and then suddenly every attack is a luck fest to see if he gets permanently damaged. You deny this???

Any block is a luck-fest. It's a dice game. What you don't like is the odds. And they're not as high as you claim: certainly not a coin flip. A 2d block vs a block player has a 55% chance to knock him down, and it's then 58% to KO or better with full CPOMB. The odds are ~32% to KO or better, and much of those odds are KOs. So "often dead or permanent injury" isn't that often at all.

Again, no need to remove PO. Just run rez.

@hotdogchef said in Remove Pile on:

The dmg chance is so high that many describe it as "flip a coin" if your player leaves the pitch (often dead or permanent injury)... you have used tons of battles to get your team to the current state and then suddenly every attack is a luck fest to see if he gets permanently damaged. You deny this???

I do. Because every preceding battle was a luckfest as well. To the moment when they got that much PO on them you should have came up with some counter-measures yourself (more Fend? more reserves? try to lower your TV, get more cannon fodder with DP, but still leave enough TV diff to get a bribe so you could foul him with your expendable chaff?)

@hotdogchef said in Remove Pile on:

SKILL is not that important anymore. With full dmg combo on many players it's not skill that run the match anymore, just pure luckfest of some blocks.

Except for the first turn, to throw a block more often than 1 time per turn (blitz), you need to get in contact with somebody first, giving him opportunity to block you. That's where your skill kicks in (preventing him from forming efficient lineups to cause you more damage, assuming optimal positions yourself, keeping distance if they are too strong etc). Some matches you'll lose will be the ones when your skills can't help much. Yet there will be a lot of lost matches where odds were not that bad. Usually the problem of those who complain about "no skill in BB, only luck" is that they don't possess enough skill to at least win the latter. So from their perspective all matches they lost were decided by dices. It's easier to blame dices than yourself 😉

The difference between good and bad coach is not that much in BB, in terms of winrate it may be 5-15% of difference, on a long run (like, 40% loss/60% wins - that's a very good result, excellent may be). So if you would be able to win a half of those matches you lost (what is quite possible if you'll bump your skill), you'll become a very good BB player perhaps. It's very unlikely you'll get better than that ever, though, unless you're genius. That's the nature of the game, you may see a similar situation in poker, for example, but nobody demands that rules of poker would be changed to be more "fair" and less random. Those who don't like it play some card games with less emphasize on randomness, and still a lot of people enjoy poker as well.

If you afraid of PO, get more Fend on your players. If you think your team is too squishy, get more spare linemen. If you play elves or rats, adopt survivalist mentality, as their gameplay assumes heavy loses and often playing outnumbered (because they are very good and it's their main weakness); sacrifice your cannon fodder on the LoS, keep distance with others never accepting fistfights with bashers without very good reason. Screen your valuable players with cannon fodder, try to not leave anybody standing and adjacent to basher's players. Sometimes you'll fail to achieve this due to luck, but many times also because you lack skills. If you'll get rid of the latter component, you'll get as close to limits what skill can do in BB as possible.

If you play some bash team and constantly facing "steel walls of death" odds are you s**k at positioning because their gameplay is much less forgiving in that regard than when you coach elves.

last edited by Mori-Mori

You probably should try to read this book

It's written by a very good Fumbbl player. One interesting insight you can find there is that their core defensive lineups emphasize screening and saving just 5 your core positional players while the rest are considered expendable fodder. And you may trust those guys, they've had experience of playing toughest coaches you may find for decade+, with PO and everything (before they removed it not so long ago :3) So you should expect (especially if you play squishy teams) that you'll never be able to develop more than 4-5 players too much, so it's better to prioritize survival of this core squad, sacrificing others in the process.

last edited by Mori-Mori

Let's not turn a discussion into an argument.

OP is not in any way wrong, he is just expressing his frustration with how a unique skill combo ignores/circumvents regular game mechanics (AV+INJ rolls) and ruins his teams.

Also, claiming that everyone who say death teams are a problem are just really bad at blood bowl is not helping either.

Of course, there are other skill combos that ignore/circumvent the regular game mechanics, for example:

  • an AG5 + Pass + Safe Throw + Accurate + Strong Arm + Nerves of Steel High Elf thrower can throw passes that simply ignore tackle zone modifiers, interceptions and pass length.

  • an AG4 + MA9 + dodge + sprint + sidestep Skink can OTTD (almost) every kick off.

  • an AG6 + Dodge + Two Heads Skaven Gutter Runner can (almost) ignore tackle zone modifiers while dodging.

... but the difference is that other skill combos like these three, while certainly can at their best make winning a match close to impossible for any opponent, once your team has lost 0-4 to a team packed with such skills, you go on and live to fight another day. Whereas against the very powerful CLAWPOMB combo, win or lose, your team is at the risk of never being able to play again.

I mean, there is a reason robbing someone is not considered as bad as stabbing him.

(And I bet that when you saw me list an AG6 gutter runner you were like: "Dude, you are crazy! You would never get an AG6 gutter runner! That would just be stupid! That is just not gonna happen! That would be too crazy!"

...well, guess what a lot of other people think about a horns + block + tackle + mighty blow + claw + piling on, player)

Then there is the mutation factor to consider. I think that if every team in the game had access to mutations, then CLAWPOMB could more easily be justified. But as long as it is simply unattainable by the majority of teams (not unlikely but literally IMPOSSIBLE to get), it gives an unfair advantage. But like Bob says: "what has fair got to do with anything?"

But if fair doesn't matter...

...then why is grab and frenzy limited?

last edited by Lexingtond
BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

claiming that everyone who say death teams are a problem are just really bad at blood bowl is not helping either.

Has anyone done that?

it gives an unfair advantage

How does this "advantage" manifest itself? Because such teams don't win more than they should.

why is grab and frenzy limited?

Because the game designers said it should be. Also, it probably prevents some potentially confusing situations.

@lexingtond said in Remove Pile on:

Also, claiming that everyone who say death teams are a problem are just really bad at blood bowl is not helping either.

The problem is what is considered to be a "problem". It's quite subjective matter. As @dode74 has mentioned, Chaos or Dwarves are not the most effective teams in terms of winrate. The problem assumed here is that for those who have such urges it's impossible to "level up" their precious pixels indefinitely. That's a very subjective definition of problem which apparently doesn't align well with original concept designers build this game upon - which is sort of emphasized in the recent edition of rules, where despite PO is moved to optional section (as of now, it's not the last edition of the rules though), but Redrafting system is added which still enforces additional attrition, but now in a uniform way, so it will equally vent out experienced players both from agility and bash teams after several seasons; so, still no leveling your players for too long, and even on short distances it will be hard to maintain a full team of developed players, often coach will have to fire some of them during Redrafting anyway. Though this system probably makes long-term attrition less random/more predictable process, what may be a good thing for management part of the game.

Anyway, it doesn't seem that the core concepts of the game see some star player(s) leaving your team as "a problem" - you do. And again, statistics proves that elves do live long enough to win more than Chaos, and that casualties they take don't prevent them from winning (at least, for some time). The solution for those over-attached to their players is here - Rez league (when Cyanide finally will make it playable).

last edited by Mori-Mori

I think it's fine the way it is, as it can be completely countered by Fend, which should be taken on any high AGI teams anyway. That means only a Blitzer with Juggernaut can get you. They need Claws, Mighty Blow, Pile On and Juggernaut. Assuming they're a goatman, they still need block, which means they can choose between Frenzy and Tackle. And they have to get to level 7 first. If that Blitzing goat managed to get to level 7 without dying or retiring first, he deserves to lay your shiny elf ass out turn 1. To which, you should kick him in the balls next turn, since he so kindly decided to lay on the ground in the middle of your team.

If he's a lucky ass Chaos Dwarf... Maybe not quite as easy. He'll have block and tackle already, however after leaving a massive hole in his team's defence your catcher or gutter runner should be able to get right through and out of harm's way. Also kick him in the balls.

So I'm just curious what would be topic starters opinion on this. Here is quote:

@hotdogchef said in Remove Pile on:

As I understand Pile on is not used in table top (just as nerfed optional rule), and that Cyanide made it permanent in BB2.

@hotdogchef, would you prefer PO removal/or (slightly better imo than removing it) paying for it with TRR, but with a condition that Redrafting is implemented as well? If you don't know how Redrafting works in the new rules, you can just safely imagine the current BB2's Aging system in work. Though a bit differently, they play the very same role - remove experienced players from the game. As you ask for new mechanics to be implemented, we need to apply them as the whole system, as they were intended to be applied, right?

last edited by Mori-Mori

@john-balthial said in Remove Pile on:

I think it's fine the way it is, as it can be completely countered by Fend, which should be taken on any high AGI teams anyway. That means only a Blitzer with Juggernaut can get you.

It's not quite true, actually. Fend is negated by Juggernaut and Grab.

last edited by Mori-Mori

@lexingtond said in Remove Pile on:

Let's not turn a discussion into an argument.

Arguments happen when people aren't receptive to other people's statements, but those people won't walk away from the interaction. Right now that's you as much as anyone else.

@lexingtond said in Remove Pile on:

OP is not in any way wrong, he is just expressing his frustration with how a unique skill combo ignores/circumvents regular game mechanics (AV+INJ rolls) and ruins his teams.

You can't complain that its subjective feelings when the thread is about making a change to the game that will affect everybody. At that point everyone's "feelings" come into play, as do genuine facts about the game. So yes, the OP is in plenty of ways wrong.

CPOMB is part of regular game mechanics because it comes from the same source as all those mechanics.

@lexingtond said in Remove Pile on:

Also, claiming that everyone who say death teams are a problem are just really bad at blood bowl is not helping either.

Not helping what, exactly... your argument?

@lexingtond said in Remove Pile on:

Whereas against the very powerful CLAWPOMB combo, win or lose, your team is at the risk of never being able to play again.

CPOMB or not, your team is always at risk of gaining injuries or losing players. It is a complete myth that its only CPOMB that makes that a possibility - it's long-term attrition as a whole.

@lexingtond said in Remove Pile on:

Then there is the mutation factor to consider. I think that if every team in the game had access to mutations, then CLAWPOMB could more easily be justified. But as long as it is simply unattainable by the majority of teams (not unlikely but literally IMPOSSIBLE to get), it gives an unfair advantage. But like Bob says: "what has fair got to do with anything?"

An unfair advantage to what? Teams with mutation access don't top the win rate charts - that's generally where you find the high agility, high speed teams. Mutation access, or more specifically claw access, has a very specific advantage - it's good for beating bash teams at bashing. In a bash-heavy environment it makes you king of the bash. You won't out-play agility teams, and they'll still tend to send you home the loser of each match.

So, Pile On is fine... if you want to demand something, demand a rez+progression open league. Then the question is only "does cpomb help us win games?" because nobody can ruin your team.

I watched the play offs of 2016 (high price pool). Everybody had to start with fresh teams. Sure I know that high speed teams can outplay teams with few skills gained. Many played dwarf since they have the big skill list. But in the final a skaven and lizardmen team faced each other (lizard teams also have great speed on some of their players, and dodge). So talking about who wins the finals are not very good at addressing the problem.

The removal of players are big enough without pile on. It's not needed to give the bash teams even more kill potential.

I try to get a good record, and suddenly I get this 400+ TV match vs a team build to slaughter my team. And, guess what? They often do exactly that. You know how many hours of play I put down to get a ok record, and then the insane dmg combos rip my team apart.

You agree with me that skill are more important in the start, and when you pass a certain TV its just a total luck fest??

It's just sad and wrong, sorry.

I wished I could face teams that had the same number of matches as me, or max 1 more or 1 (even max/min 2 would have helped alot).

100 inducements = 1 reroll = 5 block skills ... this is not balance, it's a joke. Then you need to add inducements that give you 5 block skills for just one match, or 3 mighty blows and so on, and you can take this instead of rerolls.

last edited by Hotdogchef

@hotdogchef said in Remove Pile on:

The removal of players are big enough without pile on. It's not needed to give the bash teams even more kill potential.
you know how many hours of play I put down to get a ok record, and then the insane dmg combos rip my team apart.

How enough is "enough"? Apparently, game's designers do not agree with you it's enough, as in the new edition of rules, though PO is made optional, they still added Redrafting mechanics which does exactly this - removes your beloved experienced players after several seasons. So in the end they seem to try to keep the current ratio of attrition, just try to make it more "spread out", gradual. Like, less casualties in one match, yet a stable retirement of experienced players after 3-4 seasons. It is done to make perpetual leagues more playable/enjoyable. The game doesn't work well when there is no attrition, or it's too low. Nevertheless, and again, Cyanide answered your call and are adding Rez mode with progression. What else may you possibly need now?

It's not needed to give the bash teams even more kill potential.

PO tends to hurt bash teams more than others, especially when it's used by any team with mutations, they become the number one attrition dealers for other bashers. As bash teams naturally are the ones who suffer less attrition, overall, it may be exactly what designers wanted it to do. PO is less of concern to agility teams, if they are playing it right. With some Fend to prevent PO at least partly and utilizing their outstanding mobility to limit amount of blocks thrown at them each turn, they are more or so okay. PO in combo with Claw hits bashers much harder, and this is actually may be as intended. One way or another, the system needs attrition so it wouldn't turn into endless dream-team fest and to emphasize team management part of gameplay more. Removal of PO doesn't help you with your main complaint:

You know how many hours of play I put down to get a ok record, and then the insane dmg combos rip my team apart.

Your team still will be reaped apart, just not that often. As somebody already has said, Rez is what you need, not PO nerf.

@mori-mori said in Remove Pile on:

It's not quite true, actually. Fend is negated by Juggernaut and Grab.

Ah yes, grab as well, but grab can itself be countered by side-step, another common move to have on your AGI players. In a best case scenario, a chaos dwarf that rolled doubles could have Block, Tackle, Claw, Mighty Blow, Pile On and Grab at level 5. A standard lineman with no starting skills, also assuming one double, could have Wrestle, Fend, Side Step and Guard and you 40 - 70k lineman is going to be pretty well protect against a pile on. Again, you're back to a single blitz where pile on would be useful. Blitz usually get deeper into enemy territory, which makes them easier to surround for a foul.

In short, I think there's enough reasonable ways to counter pile on that don't make it overpowered, and plenty of ways to exploit an opponent who is getting too happy with their pile on. I'm not a fan of the move myself and usually only consider it on blitzers lucky enough to roll doubles and get jump up.

This is all just a discussion. I am not claiming, or at least did not mean to claim any absolute truths here.

@dode74 said in Remove Pile on:

claiming that everyone who say death teams are a problem are just really bad at blood bowl is not helping either.

Has anyone done that?

-->I believe Mori-Mori's first two comments sum up to that, yes.

@dode74 said in Remove Pile on:
it gives an unfair advantage

How does this "advantage" manifest itself? Because such teams don't win more than they should.

The advantage lies in having access to player development that other teams do not have access to. Don't get me wrong, I would not want to face a clawpomber every match so I am actually pleased that not all teams can build such players, but giving certain teams access to a whole group of skills that are unattainable by other teams must be unfair in some way. It is just weird to me that Elves don't get their own "good guy" skill group to compensate. But "fair" does not have anything to do with Blood Bowl so I don't even have a problem with that part of its design. I am just pointing out odd things Ilike how the game designers took it on themselves to limit crowd-surfing skills presumably in order to limit a team's potential to remove it's opponents pieces of the pitch, but did not limit skills in any other way. There is no "if you take diving tackle then you can't take tackle" or "wrestle vs. block" or any limit at all except that single one

@VoodooMike

I never really talked about removing pile on specifically. I joined this discussion after the OP had put his 2nd post up and mostly commented/answered/gave my thoughts on that one. I am not even for removing piling on. I am just partaking in a discussion that revolves around a very specific build that has a huge advantage in causing permanent injuries to other pieces.

Do you really not understand what I meant with "it doesn't help..."?

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

@lexingtond said in Remove Pile on:

-->I believe Mori-Mori's first two comments sum up to that, yes.

I would reread those, if I were you. He absolutely does not say anyone is "really bad" at all and offers some constructive advice.

giving certain teams access to a whole group of skills that are unattainable by other teams must be unfair in some way.

"Must be unfair in some way" is not a manifestation of unfairness, simply an indication that you imagine it to be unfair. So I ask again: how does this advantage manifest itself? Because if it really is an advantage then that would play out by the teams with the advantage winning more, right? But they don't, so...

I am just pointing out odd things Ilike how the game designers took it on themselves to limit crowd-surfing skills presumably in order to limit a team's potential to remove it's opponents pieces of the pitch, but did not limit skills in any other way.

You can't use Multiblock and Frenzy together, or Chainsaw with Multiblock or Frenzy, or dump off with Bombardier or TTM, or HMP with TTM, or Mighty Blow (or PO) with Stab or Chainsaw. There are plenty of skill interactions which aren't allowed.

@hotdogchef said in Remove Pile on:

I wished I could face teams that had the same number of matches as me, or max 1 more or 1 (even max/min 2 would have helped alot).

Number of games played is worse predictor of the "strength" of a team than TV is.

(Don't start a post with #, unless you really, really want giant-sized letters!)

last edited by Darkson

@lexingtond said in Remove Pile on:

but giving certain teams access to a whole group of skills that are unattainable by other teams must be unfair in some way.

"Some way" - so you don't know it's unfair, you just feel it's unfair. (Elves are compensated with AG4 as standard by the way.)

When I'm playing a bash team it's unfair that Ag teams dodge away all the time but I have to spend a double to get it, and they still do it better than I do! Banning the AG4/Dodge combo should go first!

(Some parts of this post may have had tongue firmly in cheek.)

I'm agree about pile on, in fact not necessary remove it, but mighty blow should'nt works with PO. It's just horrible. I don't know the % on AR7, more 50% works easy, but i think stop playing teams in ladder because that, it's just crazy.
Recently i played 2 times chorfs claw, MB, pile on, all his team, he won the coin toss both. Both game he destroyed my team in a half half time. There is no strategy, no pleasure, NOTHING ! i waste my time.
Do something for PO, NERF it a little bit, just stop the combo with MB, it's too much. Don't tell me there is no problem with that skill...

last edited by KaiiserSoze

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