Apothecary displaying Casualty results when used on Injury Table

Hi, discovered an interesting bug last night that I thought I should let you guys know about:

Here is the scene:

A Goblin has just had his Armour broken.
Game displays results from Casualty table, whilst offering Apothecary for the Injury Table.
The Injury Table result was a Death. (Naturally this would elicit an Apothecary)
Apothecary was used resulting in a "No Casualty" (Placed in sub bin). This result is not present on the Injury Table.

Conclusion: Game is displaying "future knowledge" whilst offering a re-roll for the initial Injury Table.

I have a screenshot, the replay and the capability to record. Should be very simple to reproduce, I don't think any abilities were impacting this, the only potential one being Stunty. But that is only a dice modifier, not an additional roll like the usually more buggy Decay.

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

If, when the Apothecary is used, either result is "Badly Hurt" and that result is selected, the player instead receives no injury and is returned to the reserves.

Or perhaps I am misunderstanding you? The screenshot would help if that is the case.

0_1531530953199_Evidence.jpg

There we go, there is the contravening play. As you can see, Armour has been broken - and the game is resolving the 2 subsequent Injury Tables (first to decide if injured, the second to decide which injury).

The problem is that it displays the result of the second table WHILE it is in the game state of the first table. As our player managed to avoid a Death result, with an Apothecary and this Goblin was placed in the sub bin. As you can see by the logs, having a Goblin go into the sub bin after those final rolls is definitely not working as intended. And critical game-altering information is both being rolled for and displayed to the player before the game is in that state (game must have been at the state of the first Apothecary offer)

This can only mean that the Apothecary applied to the first injury roll, while displaying critical information from the second table's result.

This also resulted in 3 Options being displayed for the Apothecary - which made it rather obvious something wasn't working as intended, and I believe this is the cause.

last edited by Raichuss
BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

Again, I may be misunderstanding you, but you get to choose which of the results is applied. Meaning if you roll Badly Hurt and the Apo rolls Dead then you can choose the Badly Hurt result instead and still go to reserves.

You most certainly are misunderstanding me, firstly - an Apothecary displaying 3 results to select from is nowhere in the rules.

Secondly, now you need to bear in mind that an Apothecary can be used in two separate instances - one instance is the injury table (the one that determines if they are knocked down, stunned, KO'd, injured) - the second instance is the injury roll itself (the one that determines if they are sitting out the game, missing next game, losing stats, or DEATH)

Now, if a player is being shown the results from the second table (the one that determines what SORT of injury is incurred) while the Apothecary is being offered to remedy the first roll. Then wouldn't this be considered game-breaking? This is giving the player advanced knowledge, while the game itself is in the prior state.

We know this is the case, as a Death result was present, but the clicked on Apothecary somehow managed to land on a "No Effect" result ... a result that can only be yielded from the first injury table.

Actually, upon further thought - Apothecary CAN end with 3 results, IF it was used on the second injury table.

Then it would be: 1st Table (injury result), 2nd Table (casualty result), 2nd Table (Apothecary result)

thus providing 3 options. BUT, only 2 of these are relevant in this instance. As the game state has progressed onto the second table. (So should never be displayed to the player as 3 selectable options)

The problem in the instance that I am trying to explain is that the game state is at the time of the 1st Table, while it is displaying to the player the result of the 2nd Table - thereby presenting a game-breaking bug as it is giving the player advance knowledge of the subsequent tables result (which in this specific instance led to the Apothecary being used, but how could this decision be made if it was in the game state of Table 1?)

I think I have explained it as best as I can - happy to answer any further questions ... however, I feel I will need to record the interaction and upload to Youtube so show you, so I shall do that.

@dode74 said in Apothecary displaying Casualty results when used on Injury Table:

Again, I may be misunderstanding you, but you get to choose which of the results is applied. Meaning if you roll Badly Hurt and the Apo rolls Dead then you can choose the Badly Hurt result instead and still go to reserves.

A Badly Hurt result goes to the Dead and Injured bin, not Reserves. What is going on?

OK, I'll try and explain it a different way, as in all politeness .. a player who is "Badly Hurt" goes into the Dead and Injured bin, not Reserves.

Just to ensure we are on the same page, there are 3 sectors in the "Off Field" Zone

  • Dead and Injured
  • Knocked Out
  • Reserves

Thus somebody who receives a "Badly Hurt" result from the second table, goes into the Dead and Injured area, NOT Reserves.

Now we are on same page ... and I really don't mean to be rude, I will try a different way to explain this:

There are 2 Tables, Apothecary can be used on either table.
Picture this situation:

  • Player is rolling on Table 1 with an Apothecary in hand
  • Player rolls on Table 1 getting an Injured result
  • Computer taps player on the shoulder recommending he re-roll this result as the result he has in store is a very bad one.
  • Player opts to Apothecary this roll with this knowledge.
  • Game state never proceeds to Table 2 as Computer has informed player it was going to be bad, and thus the player re-rolled the First Table's result. Even though it was Table 2's result that was revealed to the player and elicited the Apothecary.
BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

@raichuss said in Apothecary displaying Casualty results when used on Injury Table:

A Badly Hurt result goes to the Dead and Injured bin, not Reserves. What is going on?

Apothecary rules:
During a match, an Apothecary may attempt to cure a player
who has suffered a Casualty or been KO’d. An Apothecary can
be used only once per match. If the player was KO’d leave him
on the pitch Stunned, or, if he was not on the pitch, put him in the
Reserves box. Otherwise immediately after the player suffers the
Casualty, you can use the Apothecary to make your opponent
roll again on the Casualty table (see page 25) and then you
choose which of the two results to apply. If the player is only
Badly Hurt after this roll (even if it was the original Casualty roll)
the Apothecary has managed to patch him up and pump him full
of painkillers so that the player may be moved into the Reserves
box.

So, a Badly Hurt goes to the reserves if the Apothacary is used whether or not it was the second roll.

@dode74 said in Apothecary displaying Casualty results when used on Injury Table:

Apothecary rules:
During a match, an Apothecary may attempt to cure a player
who has suffered a Casualty or been KO’d. An Apothecary can
be used only once per match. If the player was KO’d leave him
on the pitch Stunned, or, if he was not on the pitch, put him in the
Reserves box. Otherwise immediately after the player suffers the
Casualty, you can use the Apothecary to make your opponent
roll again on the Casualty table (see page 25) and then you
choose which of the two results to apply. If the player is only
Badly Hurt after this roll (even if it was the original Casualty roll)
the Apothecary has managed to patch him up and pump him full
of painkillers so that the player may be moved into the Reserves
box.
So, a Badly Hurt goes to the reserves if the Apothacary is used whether or not it was the second roll.

Yes, yes - I understand the rules - I'm talking the displayed implementation.

So we acknowledge that there are 2 separate scenarios that an Apothecary can be used in? Due to in your post there being the presence of an "or". In the game these are supposed to be "follow-on" events .. ie they do not happen at the same time.

The computer is displaying these as synchronized events and it is presenting an advantage for players (definition: game-breaking) and presenting visual and game errors on output due to this.

I hope I am wrong, thanks for your time 🙂

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

I'm not understanding you. Not sure why.

If player is KO'd, apo can be used to keep him as Stunned.

If player is Injured, roll on Casualty table producing Result 1. Choose to use Apo to produce Result 2. The player can choose either Result 1 or Result 2 to be applied. If either of those results is Badly Hurt and is selected it becomes No Casualty.

This is series of screenshots of a test I just did.

  1. Injury happens and I have the option to use the apothecary:
    0_1531569021117_275752df-7e64-4cfd-a076-70617f13f4cb-image.png

  2. I choose to use the apothecary. The roll is made and I am given the option of either the original result (which is Badly Hurt which, when the Apo is used, becomes No Casualty - see Apo rules above) or the new result:
    0_1531569079341_b2f5912a-3cac-4a3d-895d-16f822945d54-image.png

  3. The No Casualty result is chosen and applied:
    0_1531569099340_7f1beaba-da69-4a70-884f-b289c9280174-image.png

You can see from the dice logs that at the point at which I am given the option to use the Apo I only know the original result. This is working correctly.

(and yes, it really did take 11 freaking turns to make those chorfs get a cas on snotlings...)

last edited by dode74

Thanks, we will get to the bottom of this, I have rendered a poor quality version of the contravening play, that I am uploading and should be done by morning.

Thank you for your screenies! I was thinking through the odds of trying to replicate a Death effect - and it wasn't pretty so I went the upload route instead .. However, I can alter one of your screenies to demonstrate my point for people to see while my video uploads and I link it in the morning 🙂

0_1531580402191_1531569025963-275752df-7e64-4cfd-a076-70617f13f4cb-image.png

My point still stands, critical game-breaking information is being displayed to the player before they are in that game state.

I should not be able to make this value judgement in your altered screenie. I do not believe it is working as intended.

last edited by Raichuss

The Apothecary allows you to re-roll the Injury roll (the D68), not the Casualty roll (the 2D6).

  • So your opponent rolls armour (breaks) - you can do nothing about this.
  • Your opponent rolls for injury (2-7 Stun, 8-9 KO, 10-12 Casualty) - if it's a KO you'll be offered the use of the Apo here to turn it into a Stun.
  • If your opponent gets a casualty, the roll a D68 for type of injury - after this, you will be offered the use of the Apo, which will give a reroll of the D68, ten you can choose which to accept.
  • If either of the casualty rolls (original or reroll) is a Badly Hurt (and chosen) then the player is moved to the Reserves section of the dug-out.
last edited by Darkson

@raichuss said in Apothecary displaying Casualty results when used on Injury Table:

Secondly, now you need to bear in mind that an Apothecary can be used in two separate instances - one instance is the injury table (the one that determines if they are knocked down, stunned, KO'd, injured) -

I think this is where your confusion is stemming from - as per the Apo rules dode posted above, the Apo is not used on the Injury roll (stunned, KO'd, Casualty), only on the KO or Casualty itself.

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

@raichuss said in Apothecary displaying Casualty results when used on Injury Table:

My point still stands, critical game-breaking information is being displayed to the player before they are in that game state.

I should not be able to make this value judgement in your altered screenie. I do not believe it is working as intended.

No, that first "casualty" roll is the first result. The second result can be seen in my second screenshot under "Apothecary".

Excellent, more replies ... while I make my morning coffee, I'll post the link to the shoddy recording I made to try demonstrate this.

Video is unlisted - so viewers please do not share link publically. I will be deleting it once this is resolved. Mic gain is all off so may need to crank some volume - was just done to show.

Youtube Video

It is important to bear in mind the player was warned this was going to be a death by the dice logs.

last edited by Raichuss

@darkson said in Apothecary displaying Casualty results when used on Injury Table:

The Apothecary allows you to re-roll the Injury roll (the D68), not the Casualty roll (the 2D6).

So your opponent rolls armour (breaks) - you can do nothing about this.
Your opponent rolls for injury (2-7 Stun, 8-9 KO, 10-12 Casualty) - if it's a KO you'll be offered the use of the Apo here to turn it into a Stun.
If your opponent gets a casualty, the roll a D68 for type of injury - after this, you will be offered the use of the Apo, which will give a reroll of the D68, ten you can choose which to accept.
If either of the casualty rolls (original or reroll) is a Badly Hurt (and chosen) then the player is moved to the Reserves section of the dug-out.

Yes, you pointed out 2 separate instances an Apo can be used in ... this should be resolved sequentially

INSTEAD

It is being resolved simultaneously

The manual won't help here, this is a visual logic display and resolution issue. 🙂

last edited by Raichuss

@darkson said in Apothecary displaying Casualty results when used on Injury Table:

I think this is where your confusion is stemming from - as per the Apo rules dode posted above, the Apo is not used on the Injury roll (stunned, KO'd, Casualty)

Could you please explain to me if this were true how an Apothecary is utilised to turn a KO into a Stun?

@darkson said in Apothecary displaying Casualty results when used on Injury Table:

The Apothecary allows you to re-roll the Injury roll (the D68), not the Casualty roll (the 2D6).

Except in the instance where it allows you to downgrade a Casualty result .... KO's to Stun for example.

Which is the crux of the issue - computer handles it all simultaneously, player handles it sequentially - due to the fact this is a tabletop dice game simulator .. if it were just a computer game, perhaps this could make some sense.

But this is simulating a tabletop game, where people have dice to roll and resolve, moving from one game state to the next ... however in the recorded instance, it is treating it as a single game state ... and resolving everything simultaneously, while it should be resolved sequentially? Should it not?

I think I may have it figured out .. upon further research it seems that the Apo can do nothing for a Injury roll in the first table, so while to a player this looks like it is first opportunity to Apo - due to game rules the Apo displayed is actually the second instance a player would get the opportunity to Apo.

So, on the "Injury" roll (one that determines Stun, KO, Casualty)

Here are the possible results along with potential Apo activations for these rolls:

2-7 = Stun = No Apo recourse - Table 2 unnecessary as no Injury
8-9 = KO = possible Apo recourse to turn this into a Stun (This is a player's first opportunity to Apo if applicable)
10-12 = casualty = No Apo recourse - Proceed to Table 2

Table 2 = Casualty table to decide which sort of injury
I won't spell all these out, as all of these results have potential Apo recourse, providing a re-roll that the player can select from either with. (This is a player's second opportunity to Apo - but the first the computer will display in the instance of a 10-12 casualty result on Table 1)

Soooo, what has occurred now that I've re-watched my recording a few times is that first roll was a casualty roll, with no possible recourse from Table 1 for the Apo.

I'm so happy! This makes sense, our oversight was thinking the Apo could manipulate the 10-12 result on Table 1 .. of which it cannot.

I can now explain this adequately to my compatriots ... if what I say is correct? Thank you very much for your time gentlemen.

NB - It was just a matter of thinking an Apothecary could manipulate the 10-12 result .. while it CAN, the Apothecary does this by re-rolling the subsequent table NOT by manipulating the 10-12 result the way it does with a 8-9 KO result. Yes?

last edited by Raichuss

Looks like your connection to Focus Home Interactive - Official Forums was lost, please wait while we try to reconnect.