Blood bowl - The Sisyphus game

Wiki: Sisyphus, was the king of Ephyra (now known as Corinth). He was punished by the Gods by being forced to roll an immense boulder up a hill, only to watch it come back to hit him, repeating this action for eternity. Tasks that are both laborious and futile are therefore described as Sisyphean.

I kept making new teams, just to get my teams and stats smashed by random kick off events, sudden deaths and major injuries. A broken match making system was just the icing of the cake. Rolling the rock up the hill and then it crushes down again.

There is something major wrong with the game... and Cyanide got the power to fix it...

I kept watching Jimmy Fantastic on Youtube for a while, and the main reason I did it was to see if he encountered two deaths of key players in the same half/match. Well, he did not... so I guess "Jimmy Fantastic Lucky" would be more appropriate... or... maybe he would delete those videos...

Deaths are random, kick off events are random (7 stunned... yes I had it, opponent gets two bonus turns in a row even if he is already leading... sure I had that too), opponent coaches skill level are total random, the number of games my opponents team got is crazy random, inducements don't compensate the TV difference, it's total random if your guys gets back from KO.... add it all together and you have random happy go lucky game.

And then I read this player strategy guides to each team... people treat the game as a skill game... sure it is... but the ones that write them has to have a strange and not pleasant taste in their mouths... BB should be more of a skill game and less of a random luck game... why don't the ones that treat it as a skill game fight to change it? I DO NOT GET IT!!!

When I woke up today I imagined Gollum from Lord of the rings rolling the boulder up the hill. With the personality split... skill (good) and random (evil)...

I got to understand some stuff at least, and that is to hurry play alot of matches just after a championship season get reset. Then you at least reduces the chances of getting opponent teams with alot of more matches than you. I broke that code... one of the key moves to do well in the championship qualifer...

last edited by Hotdogchef
BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

There's nothing wrong with the game. You got one bit right though:

I DO NOT GET IT!!!

You don't like the amount of randomness and are having trouble dealing with it, is all. Jimmy isn't particularly lucky, he's just better than you by a considerable margin. If this were purely a luck game there would be no consistently good players and no consistently bad players but there are, so there has to be skill involved.

Have you read the 1000 losses playbook?

  1. Of course it's alot of skill in the game
  2. It's too much random in the game
  3. Watching Jimmy make a long win streak... why did I not see this "suddenly the game decides to kill your two best players in the same match"?? Not because he is good, because he is very lucky... no offence. Yes he plays well, but I did not see 7 stuns and 2 deaths matches for him in a long while... makes me wondering... 😉
BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

2 - You are welcome to your opinion on that one 🙂
3 - The reason he doesn't take as many cas is he plays better than you. It doesn't "not happen", it just happens less. Take a look on Goblinspy for his matches: of his 74 in COL this season he has 5 with 5+ cas against (although one of those was Vamps, so could be self-inflicted) and one of those had 2 deaths.

I thought you were leaving the game?

Yes, but I fight to change the game still. But I stopped playing.

Jimmy dont have many deaths since he is so good... eh.... do you actually believe what you write yourself?? A joke dude.

last edited by Hotdogchef

@hotdogchef

Jimmy dont have many deaths since he is so good... eh.... do you actually believe what you write yourself?? A joke dude.

Over the longer term yes. If you take fewer blocks you'll get fewer cas & fewer deaths.

Skill and experience counts.

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

Exactly what koadah said. It's not often he and I are in agreement so when we are you can be sure it's correct. Other times he's wrong, ofc 😉

You quit playing the game.
Yet you still come here to complain about a game you no longer play.
...
Move on with life.

@hotdogchef said in Blood bowl - The Sisyphus game:

Yes, but I fight to change the game still. But I stopped playing.

So you want to change a game that you no longer play that is right for the majority of players to something that pleases you.

last edited by Darkson

@hotdogchef said in Blood bowl - The Sisyphus game:

Yes, but I fight to change the game still.

Though many may find it admirable, I'm losing track of what are you fighting for exactly. "To reduce randomness"? But how? I believe you said you don't like Kick Off events - and there is an option to disable it in your league. Just find other people who agree with you and play in your environment. You also were advocating Rez league with progression - well, it's most likely will be here soon. Or may be you want to enforce this (and other similar) rule in CCL? This hardly will ever happen, partly because there is little reason for this, partly because of reasons I mentioned repeatedly elsewhere - Cyanide hardly have resources and a playerbase of enough size to create and maintain several different rulesets and championships. Why they need to reduce randomness, exactly? "Because it doesn't reward skill enough" is a very subjective statement, as emphasized by "enough". Again, how enough is "enough"? It clearly rewards skill, as noted by @dode74 and others. It still has a huge randomness factor as well - just because it's that kind of a game. There are a lot of games in this world, some are more random, some are less random. Both kinds are still very popular, just among different kind of people.

At best you could expect them providing more home ruling options to reduce influence of RNG in some way in your own league, but I'm not sure you'll be satisfied with this (and won't happen anytime soon anyway as there are a lot of things which would make most of current players more happy without need to meddle with core rules)

@hotdogchef said in Blood bowl - The Sisyphus game:

I kept making new teams, just to get my teams and stats smashed by random kick off events, sudden deaths and major injuries. A broken match making system was just the icing of the cake. Rolling the rock up the hill and then it crushes down again.

That's really strange. I'm playing a lot of elves, and don't observe them breaking that badly. They take some losses, but I don't need to recreate every my team, or even half of them. Cases when they take such heavy losses that you start to think it's over are quite rare. Do you play Gobbos or Halflings?

@hotdogchef said in Blood bowl - The Sisyphus game:

I got to understand some stuff at least, and that is to hurry play alot of matches just after a championship season get reset. Then you at least reduces the chances of getting opponent teams with alot of more matches than you. I broke that code... one of the key moves to do well in the championship qualifer...

..or you could just say "bugger it!" and simply play the game, for the thrill of it, at least for this season. Ignoring how much CASes you get. Does winning this seasson's cup no matter what mean that much for you, really? So much of obsession about a game you don't like.

last edited by Mori-Mori

Would you consider poker random? Many people do, though they are most likely just not very good at poker.

In progression games with random events you need to manage the luck factor for a single game as well as for a season. You're constantly faced with decisions where your goals may be at odds. Do you make the play that gives you the best chance to win this match right now, even though it also exposes a key player to more risk of injury? When is that risk worth taking? Is there a way to make a different play with only slightly less odds of providing a score while significantly reducing the risk of an injury to a player who is key to your team's long term performance?

Do you stand up a player who can provide a screen if the play you intend to do fails, or do you leave him down so he can do something more useful if the play you intend to do does succeed?

There's a large amount of decisions you need to make every turn of every match. Making quality decisions can be difficult for even the best players. And there are many players who will make those decisions correct most of the time, but less frequently when tired, burned out, or feeling like their luck is running bad.

One thing that I know for sure is that if you fall into the trap of feeling sorry for yourself when the dice are rolling bad then it can be easy to see everything as luck based. That type of mentality puts your brain into a state where you feel like you don't have any control, and snowballs into more bad decisions.

I think that if you like this game you should take some time to try to enjoy it even when you aren't winning. Evaluate your decisions without bias as best you can. With games that have luck in any capacity there are times when you will have players die or you will lose or both even when you are playing optimally. But if you can handle those situations without letting it affect you emotionally you can come out of them a lot quicker. Pocket aces lose sometimes (quite often actually). As long as you know you played the hand as best you can its a lot easier to move onto the next hand without going on tilt...

And if you don't like this game I suggest you find one that appeals to you a bit more. For some reason there are a lot of us that enjoy the balance of luck and skill.

A player that want to be best possible in a game and consider him/herself as very skilled... usually don't like too many random things going on... it's a natural human reaction.

Poker is abit similar with Blood bowl since it has luck elements that need to be "controlled" as much as possible. Still I feel that Blood bowl got too much random things that simply can't be controlled.

In chess if a player is 10% better than the other guy he will close to never lose to that guy, only if he has a very bad day.

I stated earlier that rolling for getting KO players back is too much random added to the game. It's like a tax system that taxes you several times just see if you can survive on the random amounts of food you can buy..

Play another game if I don't like it? Well I really like so much about the game and I will return if there is a Cabalvision res leauge with spp and money gain. Just changing the option is not enough, I don't want to play in a mini leauge...

I also would have played the game regularly if they removed the deaths and treated the deaths as injuries. Losing players you grind and develops kills the game for more me than anything else. Injuries will also cause atrition to the teams.

Of course limit the number of players that get stunned in the pitch invasion to max 3 is also a valid request. A request that should be treated with respect and understanding. Getting 7 players stunned, yes I had it, it's retarded too much... and Cyanide can make this "little" change?

Working to get changes to the online game (I don't care about the table top game in real life play) is very hard. I like challenges that are very hard...

I don't like dode74 that much... but he has tried to make Cyanide change the matchmaking for fresh teams in the championship qualifier. So they don't face develop teams in the first matches. It shows that he agrees with me on something... and that gives me some hope...

It is really strange for me that Cyanide is not interested in feed back why players that plays BB2 leave the game. A game company should at least try to collect data about how to make the game more popular... weird huh? A link to a poll when you uninstall, a feedback link inside the game where you can vote or add polls that others can vote on...

last edited by Hotdogchef

@hotdogchef said in Blood bowl - The Sisyphus game:

A player that want to be best possible in a game and consider him/herself as very skilled... usually don't like too many random things going on... it's a natural human reaction.

Then again, you are repeatedly have been referred to poker. Which is highly random game with often a quite thin margin separating those who are good at it from those who's fate is totally decided by luck. And poker is highly popular game, may be even the most popular card game in the world. So you really assume you are entitled to the right of, say, enforcing your vision of "ideal, less random poker" on all those people who like their highly random card game? There are card games which are less random than poker, people who want less randomness play them, end of story.

@hotdogchef said in Blood bowl - The Sisyphus game:

In chess if a player is 10% better than the other guy he will close to never lose to that guy, only if he has a very bad day.

And guess what, a lot of people don't like chess and chess-like games (me including). Such stiffen, totally predictable mechanic don't appeal to everybody's taste. At any day I prefer something more accurately depicting a feel of a real thing (a real football match, a real combat encounter etc) which is not easily predictable, and thus can surprise you again and again, and is much more thrilling - over chess. Again, you don't seem to appreciate the thrill of BB's gameplay stemming from its randomness, while at the same time you can't get that other people don't appreciate the feel of chess-like mechanics.

@hotdogchef said in Blood bowl - The Sisyphus game:

I stated earlier that rolling for getting KO players back is too much random added to the game.

Then you perhaps should start to learn how to roll for KO less? In ideal situation you must roll for it at best 3 times at the start of the drive, and at best 1 time per each turn. Extra rolls sometimes happen due to bad luck (when you did all optimally, but rolled 2 doubleskulls what left some players adjacent to the opposition's blockers), but many times because the other coach is better at positioning than you. If you learn how to shift more risks to your opponent you'll start running for KO less. Then the only thing that will be left is those really unlucky matches when you rolled 3 deaths of your core positionals. But then, if played wisely, it won't happen too often, even for rats or elves, and that's how the game is, that what makes it thrilling, that's what a lot of coaches like in it. As it was repeated many times, you can play Rez, with kick off events disabled, what's else to ask for?

@hotdogchef said in Blood bowl - The Sisyphus game:

Well I really like so much about the game and I will return if there is a Cabalvision res leauge with spp and money gain. Just changing the option is not enough, I don't want to play in a mini leauge...

Then I just can't get what's a purpose of those threads you create again and again. Cyanide has it on to-do lists already, so you just need to wait. I doubt that any number of threads you'll create will speed up their delivery.

@hotdogchef said in Blood bowl - The Sisyphus game:

Of course limit the number of players that get stunned in the pitch invasion to max 3 is also a valid request. A request that should be treated with respect and understanding.

I totally don't mind more home rules at all. Like, something you could play in your Rez private league. You still will need to convince Cyanide it's a feature that is needed by a lot of players, as they are very unwilling to do any unneeded work at this point. Certainly not for CCL, though. Change the official rules used in main league just to make it more "fair to the skill" doesn't make any sense. The game never was designed to be "fare". If you want to use non-standard rules, home rule them and play with similar-minded people. If everybody will leave CCL for your "fair" BB experience, then - hey, you've won at this point!

If it's really what a lot of people need (and not just you), it won't be that hard to gather enough of coaches in your private league and play with your less random home rules, right? Apparently, audience of these forums is too small, and seems to not agree with most of your ideas. You could also start your campaign on Steam forums and other communities asking for other similar-minded people to back up your optional home rule requests. This may convince Cyanide that it's a feature worth investing their time into. What are you doing so far is not very convincing.

@hotdogchef said in Blood bowl - The Sisyphus game:

I don't like dode74 that much... but he has tried to make Cyanide change the matchmaking for fresh teams in the championship qualifier. So they don't face develop teams in the first matches. It shows that he agrees with me on something... and that gives me some hope...

That change doesn't alter the core rules. Core rules don't define MM mechanics, or that teams must be paired based on TVs etc. As somebody mentioned, game never was developed to be played digitally, with MM. Cyanide just had to invent some way of random pairing team in ad-hoc manner to make MM work. Originally, in TT, the game is played by scheduling matches, mostly in pre-determined fashion, like in real football. That ensures more or less equal development of all teams, you can't get much more developed than others that easily in such format (so you often will decide to cause as much harm as possible to your opponent, say, with last turns gang fouls, to injure his valuable players so next time you'll meet him he'll be less developed than you - and it's a honorable, viable strategy in BB). So that's what @dode74 tried to achieve with this fix - I believe - is to make MM a bit more like a scheduled format in terms of pairing opponents. I doubt he supports any changes to core rules, actually, he was repeatedly opposing yours and others' claims they must be changed (like in "Remove PO" topic in suggestions)

@hotdogchef said in Blood bowl - The Sisyphus game:

It is really strange for me that Cyanide is not interested in feed back why players that plays BB2 leave the game

I mentioned Eve Online already. I've been occasionally playing it for ~7 years, and whining about its cruel, unfair mechanics is non-ceasing on its forums. There is always some disheartened guy who is "leaving the game because it's badly done comparing to WoW, everybody and his mom wants to scam and kill you, you never, ever feel safe in the whole game world, all players will leave soon the game will be dead etc etc". Older players even say such complaints were always here since early 2000th at least. The game is still there, full of players who love this exactly "cruel, unfair world" and enjoy to scam, rob, betray and kill each other. They just like this game, not all games must be "like WoW". Each game has its audience, what is so hard to understand about it?

last edited by Mori-Mori

@dode74 said in Blood bowl - The Sisyphus game:

There's nothing wrong with the game.

That was a little strong IMO. 😉

@mori-mori said in Blood bowl - The Sisyphus game:

That change doesn't alter the core rules.

Core rules have changed. Yet you guys still want to cling to CPOMB which is screwing your MM leagues.
That, I don't get.

Keep your CPOMB in private leagues if you want but give MM a chance. 😉

I can only agree with Dode once per year. 😉

@koadah said in Blood bowl - The Sisyphus game:

Core rules have changed. Yet you guys still want to cling to CPOMB which is screwing your MM leagues.
That, I don't get.

That may be a reasonable strategy as it doesn't seem at all that GW has stopped changing the rules already, and the PO nerf they implemented is getting a lot of negative feedback. It's also not okay to apply it separately from other changes, as it was supposed to be used as a system. Which @hotdogchef probably will like even less. Like, mandatory usage of the Cards in each match, what adds even more randomness.

last edited by Mori-Mori

It might not be enough for @hotdogchef but Fumbbl Black Box is hell of a lot better after implementing part of season 1.

I suppose there will always be a market for mindless team shredding.

I hate mindless teamshredding, and I look down upon noobs that endorse it...

Dang I already look upon Koadah as a brother.... 🙂

last edited by Hotdogchef

@hotdogchef said in Blood bowl - The Sisyphus game:

I hate mindless teamshredding

Because when you're playing mindlessly, you are the one who is usually teamshredded. You could try to play thoughtfully, perhaps, and teamshred your opponent's team.

@koadah said in Blood bowl - The Sisyphus game:

part of season 1

Implementing a cherry-picked part of rules which certain part of community finds providing a "better experience". Seems totally legit. Why exactly can't Cyanide cherry-pickingly leave out PO nerf because may be it seems a better approach from their perspective here?

last edited by Mori-Mori

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