I honestly hate this game [Mostly rant/complaint]

Ill start by saying I have owned bloodbowl 2 for a long time. Got it on release and have damn near end up hating it everytime I play. The thing about RNG based games (which are a problem in their own right) is that no matter what you do, sometimes there is no hope of success. Games are meant to be won, not 100% of the time, but there designed that when played right then you can win. This game, this god forsaken game, has no such system. Just watched as i had 4 deaths, 2 injuries, and 4 KOs in a single game. Watching as my opponent rolled 6 after 6 dodging multiple tackle zones, passing and throwing the pall, ect.

I should also make a point that this game revolves around minimizing using the very system that makes up its core game play. Can you even imagine if other games did that? if call of duty rewarded you for not using your gun? or if starcraft 2 rewarded not building units? they wouldn't even be games anymore. I get using RNG to spice up a game, and sometimes it can make a game very entertaining. By adding variety to outcomes it makes an interesting experience every time. What is not good game design, is make every thing a dice roll. Hell, even walking to far is a roll of the dice. Its a glorified gambling game without the payoff.

Yet I come back to this game about once a year to see if maybe, this time, itll be different. Though every time, it ends the same. I honestly don't even understand why these games are so popular. Even XCOM has actions where you can be productive without rolling dice. Sigh, cant wait for the "Git Gud" comments.

Keep calm, and don't use the main mechanic of the game.

@kaiserlunwood said in I honestly hate this game [Mostly rant/complaint]:

his game, this god forsaken game, has no such system. Just watched as i had 4 deaths, 2 injuries, and 4 KOs in a single game. Watching as my opponent rolled 6 after 6 dodging multiple tackle zones, passing and throwing the pall, ect.

That sentence is funny, because how need your opponent to dodge through multiple tackle zones, if there aren't any players left.

I should also make a point that this game revolves around minimizing using the very system that makes up its core game play.

It's about minimizing risk. Order of operations, do the non-risky stuff first, do the average stuff next and THEN do the risky stiff, IF YOU NEED to do in order to win.
There is a certain skill behind it, knowing when to do the stuff, positioning your players and "planning your failures". This is why better players will win more against not so good players ON AVERAGE.
Like professional poker. Or Hearthstone.

Even XCOM has actions where you can be productive without rolling dice.

Yes, you do the non-risky stuff first, then the >80% shots and then maybe you do the 50/50 shoot.

Keep calm, and don't use the main mechanic of the game.

Moving is a mechanic. Also, sacrificing a goat to nuffle helps

last edited by Spiked-Wall Man

I'm guessing you never played table top Blood Bowl before coming to this game, and had preconceptions of what the game was.

Really sounds like you're not a table top gamer (war games or board games) at all.

[Edit] And before you come back with some reply like "it's not the game, it's the RNG", the RNG has been checked and is more random than the average dice that comes in a physical game (war- or board-). I'm sure @VoodooMike or @Dode74 can link you to it if they can be bothered and/or it wasn't deleted in yet another forum move.

last edited by Darkson

kaiserlunwood... many have tried to say something, I bet you think the same as me: BB would been a heck of a game with a serious reduction in random...

A smart person would not even bother to write stuff here on this forum. You can try to run in full speed and see if a concrete wall gives in. It's that pointless.

Those that support you, like me... they probably stopped playing and just quit. There is no really attempts to catch up who many that quits to the randomness. A good developed poll.

The random lovers here on this forum (and in Cyanide?) don't want any changes that can give a total logical change room to grow. It's like saying satan in the church during the middleages. You will burn screaming, or silent screaming, in flames... feeling dumb and helpless.

Dode74, one of the leader mods, don't really have a clue but pretends he does.
Mori and Darkson will countersay you until they run into a heartattack many years from now.

The three of them live their lives on this forum.

Voodoo got some good points... but just Voodoo don't help that much.

It's all a grand farce... sad but true.

last edited by Hotdogchef

@Spiked-Wall-Man Instead of trying to nit pick logical fallacies, try thinking about the context of what I said. They didn't all get knocked out of the game at once, which is why I stated game instead of turn. He was running through tackle zones prior to the annihilation of my team.

@Darkson You bring up a lot of good points. I already have an understanding of how Warhammer40k is played, and in comparison the video game did a remarkable job of replicating it.

Now touching on both comments on RNG. Notice I made the comparison of the game to gambling. Poker is a gambling game, where fate deals you cards and you play them. Hoping you get the right combination, you can choose to fold or continue. Gambling is about minimizing risk, because the stakes are high. Its the true appeal of it that makes it addictive. Then if we look at hearthstone, you get to create your own deck instead of the house. Only putting in cards that allow for good combinations. Its about maximizing potential, do you see the difference?

in bloodbowl 2 you get to choose your team to best fit a play style, more dice rolls, bonuses towards actions, maximizing potential like hearthstone. Then you have to turn around and minimize using any of those bonuses and actions because as @Darkson claims, the generator is even more random than real dice and nothing is certain. So statistically, you can do quite literally do everything right in a game, and still only roll skulls.

As a side note, it doesn't help that even when i do win I barely get enough gold to buy anything aside from a few new cheerleaders. 80k Max get you some basic stuff, but its disheartening that i'm going into my next match with less than 11 players because i couldn't afford to replace them. Add on top of that, The only time someone levels up is about 2 to 3 games in, I just feel like I have to trudge through loads of bullshit before I can get the reward of one dude getting a single extra skill.

I like the IDEA of bloodbowl 2, I dislike its execution. It just feels unrewarding, like I have to force myself to enjoy it. "Its alright I've lost a lot of guys, matches, and time. Just how the dice roll sometimes!" Might work in board games, but i feel like we have come along way since the 80s and should push for high quality gameplay.

Oh and @Hotdogchef its not really a "his side" "my side" kind of thing. I can see why people like it, Just not for me. I want to like it though, which is why I am here. Maybe by discussing my grievances and complaints with others I might find the answer I am looking for. But thanks for having my back though lol

last edited by kaiserlunwood

Don't think that no one listens.

The starting with fewer than 11 players issue was addressed long ago. You now get free journeymen to make up the numbers. You didn't get those in the old days.

People whine about the deaths and injuries (me included). Attrition has been reduced.

The kick-off table has been softened.

IMO CPOMB ruins the big open divisions. In the next set of rules it has been softened.

If you find blood bowl unrewarding then it is either not your thing or you are just not good enough.

I am crap with elves. They die on me very easily. But if I keep playing the team and I get a few blodged up, all of a sudden they start living longer. Then I can get to 12 or 13 players and have a real team.

The better you play the fewer of your players die. The better you play the less you are at the mercy of luck.

If you buy the board game you can tear up the official rules and make up what ever rules you like. The problem is, everyone prefers different changes. Cyanide may add some options but they cannot implement all the different ideas that people come up with.

In the big open divisions, they will stick fairly close to official rules. You may not like my proposals and I might not like yours. So, what should they implement?

@kaiserlunwood said in I honestly hate this game [Mostly rant/complaint]:

@Darkson You bring up a lot of good points. I already have an understanding of how Warhammer40k is played, and in comparison the video game did a remarkable job of replicating it.

And this game, for all it's bugs, is a much closer replication of the game of Blood Bowl then any version of video games to 40k (which will show in my further replies).

So statistically, you can do quite literally do everything right in a game, and still only roll skulls.

Yep, just like in the tabletop version.

As a side note, it doesn't help that even when i do win I barely get enough gold to buy anything aside from a few new cheerleaders. 80k Max get you some basic stuff, but its disheartening that i'm going into my next match with less than 11 players because i couldn't afford to replace them.

That's poor team management - you don't have to spend what you earn, you can save it towards better purchases, and as @Koadah said, there is no reason to be playing with less than 11 players.

Add on top of that, The only time someone levels up is about 2 to 3 games in, I just feel like I have to trudge through loads of bullshit before I can get the reward of one dude getting a single extra skill.

Yep, just like the tabetop game.

I like the IDEA of bloodbowl 2, I dislike its execution. It just feels unrewarding, like I have to force myself to enjoy it. "Its alright I've lost a lot of guys, matches, and time. Just how the dice roll sometimes!" Might work in board games, but i feel like we have come along way since the 80s and should push for high quality gameplay.

However, Cyanide have pushed for a accurate digital version of the tabletop game - all your complaints are aimed at the game of Blood Bowl, because that is what this is. BB2 isn't meant to be like Blood Bowl or invoke the atmosphere of Blood Bowl, it is meant to be a faithful reproduction of the tabletop game.

So if Blood Bowl, the tabletop version isn't to your liking then unfortunately you're not going to enjoy BB2.

Is this the whinge thread?

I would like to say that I love Blood Bowl.
I have played hundreds of online games, and still havent used all the teams, so will be playing hundreds more.

I think Blood Bowl 2 was poorly executed.
-I dont like the entire user interface at all
-league management lacks a laundry list of features.
-The models still can’t be customised enough, even the paint schemes don’t have enough choices.

The random nature of the game is the only thing that keeps me playing.

last edited by Marni

@hotdogchef said in I honestly hate this game [Mostly rant/complaint]:

Dode74, one of the leader mods, don't really have a clue but pretends he does.
Mori and Darkson will countersay you until they run into a heartattack many years from now.

The three of them live their lives on this forum.

What was that part about ad hominem attacks again?

I love this game. I love Cyanide’s work un this game.

@kaiserlunwood I'm pretty sure Dode would be in favor of allowing leagues to change the amount of randomness (say, removing kick-off events or changing their place on the 2d6 table), without deviating from the rules in the official ladder.

When it comes to the dice, minimizing risk means you're constantly working with probabilities, even if (or because) you don't actively roll them.

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

I'm all for all the customisation everyone wants in their own leagues.

@Darkson you are entirely right. It does play a lot like the board game, but this is not a board game. I understand that they wanted to be as faithful to the source material as possible, and they did a good job. Not many companies and studios can say they have served source justice while replicating it. Though understand, should they and the players, be content with how it is now?
Why would you settle for something at base level, when it could be improved? without the constraints of a table top game, in the virtual space this game could be something great. You cant honestly believe that the original was perfect in every aspect right? nothing truly is. Putting the game on a new platform meant that they could improve the game beyond its physical bounds. Which is what most of my complaints were, just felt like a lot of wasted potential.

@the-Sage That actually sounds pretty great, I think that would solve a lot of personal issues for me. Some of the dice rolls just feel like they were placed there, just to have more dice rolls. I understand rolling to see how the ball reacts to flying through the air and landing, I don't understand how my best player gets killed on the first kick off of the game. Maybe making less harsh punishments for random chance out of our control? This happens before I even touch my mouse, It just feels like i get punished for just playing sometimes. @dode74 thanks for the comment, good to know these comments are being heard, even if mine was kind of a rant lol

I do want to thank everyone for the replies, honestly didn't think me complaining would get any. So, being open minded, i'm going to give the game another try. Though, this time I am going to be in a different mindset. Maybe I am just bad at the game, never know unless you try. I think the answer I was looking for was answered, in that it gets better with time. Hell, darksouls isn't even playable until you have a few hours in it.

BB2 Champion Ladder Admin Team

without the constraints of a table top game, in the virtual space this game could be something great.

It would also be something different. Some might see that as a good thing, certainly, but it has been tried before. Cyanide made Chaos League about 14 years ago, and while that was a great game in its own right it it wasn't Blood Bowl. They also tried using the PC to greater advantage in BB1 with Blitz mode and real-time modes, but neither were even close to being as popular as base rules. It was a conscious decision to go with tabletop.

Good to see you're giving it another try.

@kaiserlunwood said in I honestly hate this game [Mostly rant/complaint]:

Why would you settle for something at base level, when it could be improved? without the constraints of a table top game, in the virtual space this game could be something great. You cant honestly believe that the original was perfect in every aspect right? nothing truly is. Putting the game on a new platform meant that they could improve the game beyond its physical bounds. Which is what most of my complaints were, just felt like a lot of wasted potential.

But that wasn't what they were aiming for - they have always said, even back when they showed a demo version of BB1 at the BB Grand Tournament at Warhammer World in '08 (? I think, might have been '09), that they wanted to bring the "tabletop game 100% to the computer", they didn't want to make a different version. They did try, with the Blitz mode and the Nintendo version, but neither was successful.

So could they do a "better" digital version? Yes, maybe they could, but that was never their intention.

@marni said in I honestly hate this game [Mostly rant/complaint]:

Is this the whinge thread?

I would like to say that I love Blood Bowl.
I have played hundreds of online games, and still havent used all the teams, so will be playing hundreds more.

I think Blood Bowl 2 was poorly executed.
-I dont like the entire user interface at all
-league management lacks a laundry list of features.
-The models still can’t be customised enough, even the paint schemes don’t have enough choices.

The random nature of the game is the only thing that keeps me playing.

Now this is the whinging I can get behind.

I really don't get the whole "too much random" in BB because... what are you suggesting exactly? Its one thing when people say Blitz! should be gotten rid of, or throw rock, etc. But when youre literally just complaining about "too much dice" in a dice-based game, well then I dont get it . As OP said, maybe its just not for him. But this @Hotdogchef fella... what are your suggestions for fixing it exactly? How would you create the game of BB in a suitably non-random fashion? Genuinely curious.

But I completely agree with @Marni - Much to be improved about the UI, and the same goes for the league management. But to me, the biggest head-scratcher of them all is the lack of customization.

I say this because I can see huge benefit on both the player and developer sides here. If there's one thing that makes the BB fanbase unique, it is the tabletop roots that so many have. And even those who dont play TT, like myself, probably are drawn towards it somewhat for the customization/team building aspects. We love customization. The TT people love to paint shit. And developers love to sell stupid little cosmetic upgrades in video games these days. You can see where Im going with this...

I know there are a few (mostly crap) uniforms on sale in the shop. But honestly, there should be huuuge customization options in the game. I dont think all (or even most) should be charged for, mind you. Cant alienate the players too much. But don't you think that making an alternate model of a beastman or a troll or whatever, for however much man hours that costs on the development end, could be recouped by selling access to them in the shop for a couple bucks a pop? or as DLC or whatever? Or even just alternate armour sets for guys, or accessories etc etc etc.

/hijacking of thread

I don't know if you played BB1, but that had players who's appearance changed as they improved (went up in level). It was a poor decision by Cyanide/Focus to drop that.

Stringer bell...

Well if you removed the kickoff events, removed the rolling to get back from ko, removed pile on, better balanced the inducement system and treated deaths as injuries. Then you would still have alot of dice rolls, but the random would be seriously reduced yes?

@hotdogchef said in I honestly hate this game [Mostly rant/complaint]:

Stringer bell...

Well if you removed the kickoff events, removed the rolling to get back from ko, removed pile on, better balanced the inducement system and treated deaths as injuries. Then you would still have alot of dice rolls, but the random would be seriously reduced yes?

I heard that you can remove the kick-off table. Piling on is removed in the latest rules. Other things you could request as options. But I imagine the option request list is already pretty huge. Good luck.

While you're at it, the option to add LRB4 RSC & DP would fun at times. 😉

Yes I know about kick off option, and I allready commented about the strange logic to keep kick offs in a tournaments with money rewards = «serious» tournaments..... people are desperate to keep the game high skill-high luck instead of at least high skill-average luck.

last edited by Hotdogchef

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