@VengefulMosquito

Actually, hard body armor (trauma plates) can tank a pretty surprising amount of punishment before failure. To be quite honest, at least on the security side, both light and heavy body armor could realistically tank every ballistic weapon in the insurgent arsenal, including AP rounds with exception to the DShK mounted on Techies. ESAPI plates are no joke.

That being said, the INS team got the raw end of that bargain, as it looks like their light armor is soft. With exception to pistols and non-flechette shotgun shells. The MP7's caliber is optimized for defeating soft body armor though, and it's probably punching through despite being a pistol cartridge.

If you want to see a realistic example of body armor in FPS games, and specifically why it's horrible for balance, I present Escape From Tarkov. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jc9QdU-tn9o&t=122s

First world nations don't equip soldiers in body armor just to piss away tax dollars, and our guys aren't getting 1-tapped all the time either.

@Croox @Benz

Just to add on to the whole disagreement going on here, I see what Benz was saying, and I see what Croox was saying too.

Low TTK rewarding accuracy or lack thereof boils down to engagement distances. in CQB, if any shot above the belt is going to kill, then by all means mag dumping is a legitimate, if not superior tactic for getting kills. Due to the emphasis on map knowledge in INS2, peeker's advantage coupled with prefiring and 1-taps could effectively make holding certain objectives as an anchor near-impossible.

Plus there's a reason M249BestSMG is a meme.

Now I do agree that at long range where damage dropoff occurs, AP rounds rewarded excellent marksmanship. With Insurgency Sandstorm featuring actual bullet ballistics, it's also much easier to miss one's shots at range.

I do not believe that everyone should have access to AP, as in INS 2, it completely removed a layer of gameplay, and effectively forced the speed meta as armor was useless in most scenarios. Now that armor is effective though, I do believe that AP should make a return to SOME classes.

I specifically believe that Marksman and Advisor should have access to AP ammunition. Currently, the Advisor role fulfills a strange breacher/marksman/rifleman hybrid, but doesn't actually bring real game-changing elements to the table or fulfills an important enough role. Giving him AP rounds would definitely cement his role as more than just "cooler rifleman". As for Marksman, it would always ensure reliable kills, even at long range.

I agree 100%. The ttk is too high. I remember when I played beta 2 this morning and I was thinking "Wow, the guns are so inaccurate, I shot this dude like 4 times. My reticle was literally on him every shot" Then I realized "Oh, I was hitting him, it just takes more bullets"

Croox and Whitby is right. The weapons does not even feel deadly or anything. Weapons in this game have less recoil than the weapons in BF4 for gods sake.

@bssaar I'm fine with the recoil. I just don't like the high ttk. I don't know if it's the high ttk or the guns being really inaccurate, but it just seems like muh boolets aint doin shit sometimes

I'm amazed by people trying to argue that needing to HIT MORE SHOTS to kill someones takes LESS AIM than needing to hit LESS SHOTS .... just mindblowing. That logic.

@lucjocwhite i would say they have high TTK because the recoil is low. to balance it out.

@benz said in Single fire vs Full auto:

I'm amazed by people trying to argue that needing to HIT MORE SHOTS to kill someones takes LESS AIM than needing to hit LESS SHOTS .... just mindblowing. That logic.

https://meta-s3-cdn.freetls.fastly.net/original/1X/d55000f7718086efe6a07ad84f46951f01db2e9e.png
Have a read through the "strawman" one. Nobody has attempted to argue what you have stated here. Also while you're at it read all the others, in this thread you've checked four of those off fairly comfortably.

@croox said in Single fire vs Full auto:

@lucjocwhite i would say they have high TTK because the recoil is low. to balance it out.

Out of curiosity, did you play INS/DoI prior to Sandstorm? INS definitely had low TTK and low recoil, it was the mechanic that made NWI.

@whitby I have about 250h on ins2. and its more recoil there than here for sure. But most didnt use full auto because 1-2 shots was enough.

@croox said in Single fire vs Full auto:

@whitby I have about 250h on ins2. and its more recoil there than here for sure. But most didnt use full auto because 1-2 shots was enough.

I'd disagree about the recoil personally, but recoil management I'm sure we both agree was not a major concern unless using an M249 previously. Either way and not to derail your core point, I certainly agree the TTK is too high in Sandstorm and needs to be what it was in INS2.

@whitby said in Single fire vs Full auto:

@benz said in Single fire vs Full auto:
Nobody has attempted to argue what you have stated here.

@whitby said in Single fire vs Full auto:

Lower TTK rewards good aim.

I'm amazed

Can't agree with the return of AP rounds. I've played INS for a very long time, like 418hrs, and everyone runs AP rounds by default no matter what. The developers from one livestream made a good analogy that AP rounds was their CODMW/MW2's Stopping Power, so I don't believe that bringing AP rounds is a good idea in general. In terms of combatting against armor, that's another kind of problem to post about here.

I believe that the Semi-Auto toggle feature is good enough. Played both Co-Op and P.V.P. enough with G3, SKS, SVD, and the MK14 to see that using Semi-Auto is its own challenge. Easy to keep yourself from spraying bullets if you want to hit people at a distance (and I'm not talking about sniping distance, like around 20-40m away from you that is close enough for medium distance). Full Auto for most low-cost weapons have enough recoil to give trouble hitting people at a distance like the AKM and the SCAR-H.

There may still be problems with hitreg which are polluting people's sense of TTK.

Personally I don't miss the extremely fast TTK from the last Insurgency. It rewarded camping too much.

@benz said in Single fire vs Full auto:

@whitby said in Single fire vs Full auto:

@benz said in Single fire vs Full auto:
Nobody has attempted to argue what you have stated here.

@whitby said in Single fire vs Full auto:

Lower TTK rewards good aim.

I'm amazed

https://meta-s3-cdn.freetls.fastly.net/original/1X/d55000f7718086efe6a07ad84f46951f01db2e9e.png
Strawman and to some extent also false clause.

I'm not quantifying an "amount of aim" something takes. I'm outlining the difference between aiming and recoil management.

I don't think Benz played Ins2, haha. Don't feed the trolls etc.

I'm jumping in for Benz here.
Higher weapon damage won't make single shot more viable against full auto. It will make "Spray control" less important and shift the focus on to your target acquisition speed instead. Full auto (considering not every weapon one hit kills) will always be the higher DPS solution.
If you complain about holding a spray onto someone then I would question your target speed too, people who can hold a pattern will usually still be able to land first shot accuracy at the same speed as you - Even at extreme ranges

There needs to be a different way to make auto more challenging rather then "ADD BOOLET DAMGAE" because while sure, the TTK will be lower the balance between auto and single shot will be the same if not better for Auto (suppression is in this game which benefits full auto a LOT more then single fire) which is why i think Benz solution of making an alternative balance mechanic for auto is solid. Higher recoil won't stop me personally but is a good start.

Also, two things of note:

• Claiming someone made a logical fallacy is a cheap way of avoiding the original point entirely, they're cool to know about but you look absolutely terrible when you wave them about.
• The average Insurgency Source player is a very terrible shooter player and "i played it" should not be a mark of distinction, if you said you were pro, then sure.

Hold up for a second, 3-4 rounds is considered bullet spongie? While i would agree that for some weapons needing 2 rounds to kill someone, who is unarmored, is frustrating. But it seems really hard to find a good balance.
For me armor seems situational, since you can get bursted really quick. I however disagree with the reintroduction of AP ammo, that would make armor useless.

@goat-walrus Thanks for the input, though i was referring to the fact that most, if not all, trained soldiers use semi instead of auto (excluding maybe LMGs) especially Tier 1 units.

100% agree. This has been the problem since closed alpha. I'm really worried they will not address it and the game will become a spray and pray fest.
Just pay attention to the lobby of each game: Insurgency Source has at least 50/50 rate between full auto and semi auto users... Sandstorm has at least 90% people running around with full auto rifles