Doesn't feel like the same old Insurgency

@biass this + the fact that usually the comp scene is a fractal of the playerbase. lol.

even i don't queue for comp only simply because how frustrating it can be to get a game going.

@benz said in Doesn't feel like the same old Insurgency:

  • the fact that usually the comp scene is a fractal of the playerbase

Then why balance a game for comp if it's never gonna be a sizable chunk of the playerbase? Why is the idea of playing games only for fun so strange nowadays?

@grotesqueshadow said in Doesn't feel like the same old Insurgency:

@benz said in Doesn't feel like the same old Insurgency:

  • the fact that usually the comp scene is a fractal of the playerbase

Then why balance a game for comp if it's never gonna be a sizable chunk of the playerbase? Why is the idea of playing games only for fun so strange nowadays?

Because a competitive scene offers great exposure to a multiplayer game. Frag-movies, tournaments etc. etc. pp. It offers so much value.

@grotesqueshadow said in Doesn't feel like the same old Insurgency:

Then why balance a game for comp

What is balanced for competitive is normally balanced for public matches as well. Something stupid overpowered in a comp scene will be abused in public and make the game less fun. In source this was AP ammo, but not a lot of the public ever really noticed it. A lot of the public were also not good enough to defeat bots, as is the unfortunate case with tactical shooters, so that ties in.

I would say balancing all the weapons in source so they were all uniquely viable is both good for competition and for fun, no?

@biass said in Doesn't feel like the same old Insurgency:

What is balanced for competitive is normally balanced for public matches as well. Something stupid overpowered in a comp scene will be abused in public and make the game less fun. In source this was AP ammo, but not a lot of the public ever really noticed it. A lot of the public were also not good enough to defeat bots, as is the unfortunate case with tactical shooters, so that ties in.
I would say balancing all the weapons in source so they were all uniquely viable is both good for competition and for fun, no?

I'm not saying "don't balance" I'm saying "balance for fun" in the non-ranked play modes. If you say it's the same anyway, you shouldn't object. I do want all weapons to be viable, and I think the old game achieved that wonderfully through low TTK.

In Insurgency 2014 , there is a good reason for using Semi-Auto weapons.

In Sandstorm , Full-Auto is better than Semi-Auto in every aspect.

There is no reason to choose Semi-Auto over Full-Auto.

Semi-Auto Weapons need buff.

proposal #1 = Increase Semi-Auto Weapon Damage for about 75%

proposal #2 = Semi-Auto Weapons can pierce through Heavy Armors

last edited by Nick Kim

@grotesqueshadow said in Doesn't feel like the same old Insurgency:

I'm not saying "don't balance" I'm saying "balance for fun" in the non-ranked play modes. If you say it's the same anyway, you shouldn't object. I do want all weapons to be viable, and I think the old game achieved that wonderfully through low TTK.

Unfortunately the weapons themselves were not too balanced, it's just that AP abuse made them all blurred.

Consider the AKM and the AK-74. If you opted to use the 74 for an extra 2 supply points, you got:

18 less damage at min range and 33.3 less damage at max, this takes you out of the OHK threshold at close and almost out of the 2 hit KO at far ranges, on targets without armour.
More recoil (when both have a foregrip attached, note that the 74 could not even have a foregrip before a patch)
less penetration
less suppression
and in my opinion, a worse ADS sight picture.

All of this for 50 extra RPM and a lil less weight. The 74U has the same damage stat but with 700 RPM, less weight, but a tiny bit less range. that's also for two points.

Would you have noticed all these stats without the 4 to 5 times damage multiplier that AP ammo gave you? I think you would. But with it it doesn't matter, just abuse the ammo.

Oh, all my stats are from the wikia by the way, they could be outdated but i doubt it.

last edited by biass

@hthc-galthor said in Doesn't feel like the same old Insurgency:

@xdark

And that gameplay is bad how?

No one said it was bad, I said the gameplay hasn't changed and people need to stop bitching about full auto...
Jesus.

@grotesqueshadow

It's just what NWI said when they scrapped the single player story.

They aren't trying to compete with CS, that'd wouldn't be an easy move for any company. Games can be competitive and be their own thing. A lot of players wanted a "hardcore" competitive shooter and they found a place in Ins2.

I'll say it again, for the long term life of a game it needs a comp game mode. Either a good matchmaking system (please fix) or a player made league will keep the game alive. Remember Natural Selection II? That game lived for way longer than anyone thought strictly because of their competitive, although in the end it also died because of it. Promod kept people playing CODMW 10 years later. Even Nintendo is at odds because people won't give up their N64 Smash Bros. and there's still tournaments for it.

If a competitive game is truly their focus, I believe we can hope to see an overall improved and balanced game.

@nick-kim

That's not the way to fix the problem. Their input lag, server lag, stuttering, players running around too fast, optimization, and other problems means more bullets fired as fast as possible raises your chance of getting the kill. Until NWI fixes their game, semi guns are dead. It isn't a weapon, but a game problem.

They're doing armour pen based off of caliber.

@biass said in Doesn't feel like the same old Insurgency:

@grotesqueshadow said in Doesn't feel like the same old Insurgency:

I'm not saying "don't balance" I'm saying "balance for fun" in the non-ranked play modes. If you say it's the same anyway, you shouldn't object. I do want all weapons to be viable, and I think the old game achieved that wonderfully through low TTK.

Unfortunately the weapons themselves were not too balanced, it's just that AP abuse made them all blurred.

Consider the AKM and the AK-74. If you opted to use the 74 for an extra 2 supply points, you got:

18 less damage at min range and 33.3 less damage at max, this takes you out of the OHK threshold at close and almost out of the 2 hit KO at far ranges, on targets without armour.
More recoil (when both have a foregrip attached, note that the 74 could not even have a foregrip before a patch)
less penetration
less suppression
and in my opinion, a worse ADS sight picture.

All of this for 50 extra RPM and a lil less weight. The 74U has the same damage stat but with 700 RPM, less weight, but a tiny bit less range. that's also for two points.

Would you have noticed all these stats without the 4 to 5 times damage multiplier that AP ammo gave you? I think you would. But with it it doesn't matter, just abuse the ammo.

Oh, all my stats are from the wikia by the way, they could be outdated but i doubt it.

I will agree that some of the supply costs didn't make sense and I wouldn't complain about tweaking those to better reflect how good things actually are. What I will disagree on is AP in INS2 being "abuse". It is something that everyone has access to and can afford at the supply price. It is used as intended - it pierces armor. Abuse imho is something like the one-man-army perk in COD:MW2 with an underbarrel grenade launcher, which gave you infinite reloads for your "noob tube".
And in INS2 AP ammo actually did less damage on limb hits than normal ammo, and it was viable to play high-caliber rifles with normal ammo and aim for legs. Or use pistols with hollowpoints and aim for legs or arms, though I never had good enough aim to make that work as consistently as AP center mass shots. I've made many one hit kills with FAL/EBR and regular ammo, aiming at legs. Not sure if they nerfed that later, but that definitely worked at one point.
What I don't find reflected enough in the balance argument is that many people don't choose the gun that has the best stats, but instead the one from which they like the look and feel the most. It's part of designing your own gaming experience to be more fun for yourself. It's the reason why I went pistol only so often, I just like how pistol gameplay feels. I find the "if everything is overpowered, nothing is" approach solves this very well.

@ministro Only the AKM needed more recoil and they haven't done that. Also, less recoil on the G3? It was already a laser in Beta 1 and it shoots .308 rounds, which put people down fast.

The main reason movement FEELS so fast and video-gamey is because there is a lack of inertia.

Please watch the video below, this is a very important one pertaining to the feeling of the original insurgency
Youtube Video

@zyres - Couldn't agree more with this post. Playing as a Marksman at this stage is almost redundant. They need to either buff the damage or at the least give this class the option to take AP rounds onto the field!

I actually hate the fire support system, they definitely need to increase the cooldown timer for support, too much shit happening at the same time. I find myself more focused on hiding in buildings because of the constant barrages rather than actually moving from building to building and fighting like I did in the first Insurgency.

A medic class would have been a much better addition than the fire support system in my opinion. 16v16 is just not big enough to support it. The best matches I've played so far were the ones without Commanders constantly spamming shit.

@musicnote said in Doesn't feel like the same old Insurgency:

The main reason movement FEELS so fast and video-gamey is because there is a lack of inertia.

Please watch the video below, this is a very important one pertaining to the feeling of the original insurgency
Youtube Video

amazing video! thats whats bugging me about the movment

yea game seems to arcade like. Also about the whole air strike or what ever thing. they should make it so you cant target spawns. its annoying to spawn in and die instantly with no chance do defend yourself to some helicopter or what ever. guns need more recoil. feels like im playing cod and battlefield mixed together.

Insurgency 2014 had better sound design.

Sandstorm weapons are not loud enough.

I had to turn up my speakers.

I think the gunshot echo sounds should be louder.

last edited by Nick Kim

@nick-kim said in Doesn't feel like the same old Insurgency:

In Insurgency 2014 , there is a good reason for using Semi-Auto weapons.

In Sandstorm , Full-Auto is better than Semi-Auto in every aspect.

There is no reason to choose Semi-Auto over Full-Auto.

Semi-Auto Weapons need buff.

proposal #1 = Increase Semi-Auto Weapon Damage for about 75%

proposal #2 = Semi-Auto Weapons can pierce through Heavy Armors

Umm, no, full-auto isn't always better. Take any of the battle rifles that fire .308, for instance. How about you semi-auto 5.56 AP one-shotters in Ins2 use the battle rifles in Sandstorm that are actually designed for that reason.

Nice Video. Totally agree with @MusicNote

@marksmanmax "Umm, no, full-auto isn't always better. Take any of the battle rifles that fire .308, for instance. How about you semi-auto 5.56 AP one-shotters in Ins2 use the battle rifles in Sandstorm that are actually designed for that reason."

Full auto IS better in every way. Your example means nothing and is confusing.

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