We want the one hit kills.

pistols are useless because they need about 4 hits and the bolt action snipers can't kill a heavy armor in one hit, the weapons should always have AP rounds on them, Insurgency2 was fun because of the 1 hit kills.

Agreed but mostly I want to know if this change was intentional or not. People seem to be glossing over NWI's intentions. I can't argue my POV about 1 hit kills unless we know the NWI doesn't want them in Sandstorm.

My POV:
INS was fun because it was the first FPS I played that emphasized positioning and strategy over aim. It ran completely contrary to the trends of competitive FPS shooters and crushed "run and gun" in favor of holding angles and making small, incremental pushes. I only played Push (and Offensive in DOI) because the other game modes didn't have enough players to sufficiently punish "run and gun" behavior (especially Firefight.)

Let's wait for the thursday patch with the hitreg fix :).

Think a lot is down to hit reg. pistols against heavy body armour would likely not be very effective except for head shots but I have noted plenty of spot on body hits just not register even at close range. Got to be hit reg

We need some proper lab work to confirm the bolt actions don't 1-shot as I'm almost positive that's unintended. More likely people are getting hitreg issues with them.

It just doesn't make any sense given the SVD does 1-shot. Why wouldn't you throw down the 2 extra points then? You're getting AP rounds and a magazine and semi-auto fire for 2 points.

1 hit kills are stupid except for bolts and headshots.

@oldkingcole225

My POV:
INS was fun because it was the first FPS I played that emphasized positioning and strategy over aim.

exactly. I think that's the charm of Insurgency: it never prioritized skill and competition, but immersion. It is so fucking frustrating to hit a guy 3 times only for him to turn quickly and spray in my direction and get a lucky headshot. Leave that shit in COD and Battlefield

@tuliottr said in We want the one hit kills.:

@oldkingcole225

My POV:
INS was fun because it was the first FPS I played that emphasized positioning and strategy over aim.

exactly. I think that's the charm of Insurgency: it never prioritized skill and competition, but immersion. It is so fucking frustrating to hit a guy 3 times only for him to turn quickly and spray in my direction and get a lucky headshot. Leave that shit in COD and Battlefield

To me it is not such much about immersion, but simply about core Gameplay. Personally I strongly dislike the following unless the game is clearly a arcade like shooter, that has a very different philosophy and Gameplay.

  • You see the enemy first
  • You shoot first
  • Your hits are landing/you don't miss
  • You loose the fight

This is a big no for me in most games. I don't know exactly why, but this is not always the case in the current beta. It might be due to bugs or bad balance. The fact is that that you often loose fights because somebody can turn around and simple spray and pray you, while you did nothing wrong at all and you should have won that particular fight.

@tuliottr said in We want the one hit kills.:

@oldkingcole225

My POV:
INS was fun because it was the first FPS I played that emphasized positioning and strategy over aim.

exactly. I think that's the charm of Insurgency: it never prioritized skill and competition, but immersion. It is so fucking frustrating to hit a guy 3 times only for him to turn quickly and spray in my direction and get a lucky headshot. Leave that shit in COD and Battlefield

Beg to differ. Main appeal to insurgency to me was how it rewarded skill, decision making, and teamplay, on top of having a superb immersive environment.

If you value immersion over gameplay, maybe a modded roleplay server, or a game like ARMA would better fit your needs (probably bad suggestions, I don't know much about games with such a focus, save from roleplay servers, but these don't point to any specific game).

last edited by Coachon

@mefirst makes more sense the way you put it. I feel the same way

@coachon my opinion on Insurgency is that it doesn't take a whole lot of skill and quick reflexes like most FPSs does, but positioning and strategy (aka, knowing when to move, etc). I never want to feel competitive while playing Insurgency. Competition is stressfull, and I have a lot of stress in my life already. My main appeal with Insurgency is that it has very fun and immersive firefights: most of real life tactics works in Insurgency.

As for Arma, I just don't have the patience to find a server and set up a game... it's just waaay too much work for me. Insurgency is just join a server, get into some fun firefights, log off and get on with my day

I just want to reply to the title "we want the one hit kills".
NO, absolutly not! It requieres no skill whatsoever!
The damage model is absolutly fine as it is right now:
Go and give it a try on offline solo play against bots. It works perfect. Bolt action rifles do 1 shot tho, on any body part except for the legs. The other weapons are balanced as well.
The main problem is the hit registration which is a network or server issue. Another problem is the movement which is too fast and not smooth enough especially in terms of movement transitions.

last edited by Benny

Then maybe you don't see this game for what it is? I always feel stressed playing it because it is intense and challenging. If you don't want competitive play or stressful play, PvP doesn't seem like the best place to play casually. So maybe you'd better enjoy coop against bots? I mean, I don't agree with how you say insurgency is. I could never play casually in PvP because it mostly results in death (unless I'm not against any skilled player, then I can take it easy, but I'm lucky when that happens). I just don't feel it's the game's fault for being too hard. When I can't succeed at a game, I try to adapt. And if I fail, I move to something else I can enjoy.

@benny agreed. I would argue that the bots are perhaps too easy as they are now though. But perhaps simply a few difficulty settings would solve it? E.g.: "Normal" as the bots are now, and "Hard" with either smarter/faster reacting bots, or slightly higher danage?

I'm a fan of the faster movement myself, but I wouldn't mind it being slowed down, it IS indeed pretty fast, and must throw off players expecting same speed as previous game.

And bolt action should 1-shot, imo. But perhaps not in entire arms, but only in shoulders. Making it 1SK in head, torso, and shoulders.

@benny said in We want the one hit kills.:

I just want to reply to the title "we want the one hit kills".
NO, absolutly not! It requieres no skill whatsoever!

There is no "skill" in the sense that it is a single thing. What is described as skill is a lot of different things. These days skills in fps (or other games) are often categorized into 3 categories.

**1. Mechanical Skills

  1. Game Sense
  2. Knowledge of content**

Mechanical skill does not mean you know how to fix a car, but in some sense you could say that it is close to it. To stay in Insurgency, Mechanical Skills are skills like aiming, player movement, recoil control etc.

  1. Game Sense is a term that is sometimes a bit vague, but in the end is the ability (or skill) to figure out what is going on in the game and that often results that a player can make right predictions and properly react to it. A example would be playing a round of Firefight and you have 2 out of 3 points and there is one minute left in the game. Somebody with game sense knows that the enemy has to capture one objective in order for not loosing the round. So he can predict that the enemy players will try to capture one of your objectives. Your reaction could be to defend those objectives.

  2. We already went a bit into knowledge of content in the last example. This would involve things like knowing the rules of game modes, or simply knowing how much rounds a magazine of gun X has.

All these categories have a lot of little skills that people can learn and master.

So let me explain why "one shot kills" or a lower TTK does not mean that the game is requiring less skill. It is simply requesting and rewarding different skills. So let's take a example that currently happens quite a lot (from my point of view). You see a enemy playing moving or just being static. The enemy player has not seen you yet, or he can not see you (because he could be facing the other direction). You start shooting at the player and you actually hit the player. The other player is reacting to the fire, faces you, shoots at you in full auto and actually kills you.

The problem here is that it is likely that a handful of skills are not rewarded, while a smaller number of skills is rewarded out of proportion. The first player was most likely more aware of what was going on in general, he made efforts to approach a position without being seen so easily, he had good aim and yet he got "outplayed" by somebody who just had a good reaction time and some mechanical skills.

By the way, when we speak about one shot kills we also talk about several things.

  • Headshots
  • Hits with Sniper Rifles in the torso.

Those are things that a lot of players think should be truly one hit kills. Apart from that players would like to see situations in which normal weapons will kill players with 2-3 hits in the torso.

@mefirst said in We want the one hit kills.:

@benny said in We want the one hit kills.:

I just want to reply to the title "we want the one hit kills".
NO, absolutly not! It requieres no skill whatsoever!

There is no "skill" in the sense that it is a single thing. What is described as skill is a lot of different things. These days skills in fps (or other games) are often categorized into 3 categories.

**1. Mechanical Skills

  1. Game Sense
  2. Knowledge of content**

Mechanical skill does not mean you know how to fix a car, but in some sense you could say that it is close to it. To stay in Insurgency, Mechanical Skills are skills like aiming, player movement, recoil control etc.

  1. Game Sense is a term that is sometimes a bit vague, but in the end is the ability (or skill) to figure out what is going on in the game and that often results that a player can make right predictions and properly react to it. A example would be playing a round of Firefight and you have 2 out of 3 points and there is one minute left in the game. Somebody with game sense knows that the enemy has to capture one objective in order for not loosing the round. So he can predict that the enemy players will try to capture one of your objectives. Your reaction could be to defend those objectives.

  2. We already went a bit into knowledge of content in the last example. This would involve things like knowing the rules of game modes, or simply knowing how much rounds a magazine of gun X has.

All these categories have a lot of little skills that people can learn and master.

So let me explain why "one shot kills" or a lower TTK does not mean that the game is requiring less skill. It is simply requesting and rewarding different skills. So let's take a example that currently happens quite a lot (from my point of view). You see a enemy playing moving or just being static. The enemy player has not seen you yet, or he can not see you (because he could be facing the other direction). You start shooting at the player and you actually hit the player. The other player is reacting to the fire, faces you, shoots at you in full auto and actually kills you.

The problem here is that it is likely that a handful of skills are not rewarded, while a smaller number of skills is rewarded out of proportion. The first player was most likely more aware of what was going on in general, he made efforts to approach a position without being seen so easily, he had good aim and yet he got "outplayed" by somebody who just had a good reaction time and some mechanical skills.

By the way, when we speak about one shot kills we also talk about several things.

  • Headshots
  • Hits with Sniper Rifles in the torso.

Those are things that a lot of players think should be truly one hit kills. Apart from that players would like to see situations in which normal weapons will kill players with 2-3 hits in the torso.

Good explanation!
I was obviously refering to 1. mechanical skills. They are (imo) most important in fps games. At least, they are mandatory to be a good player.
Of course, the other points (2 & 3) are very important, too. However, you won't get better at 2 or 3 by making any weapon 1 shot.
So i get what you're saying, but your example is kind of weak. If you have bad mechanical skills you will and should never become a good player in my opinion.
Basically, if any weapon would kill with 1 bullet the gun balancing would be terrible. Bolt action rifles or shotguns would be pretty much useless. That would make classes in this game useless, since everybody would pick an AR. Armor would be useless as well.
I could go on a lot...

last edited by Benny

@mefirst said in We want the one hit kills.:

So let me explain why "one shot kills" or a lower TTK does not mean that the game is requiring less skill. It is simply requesting and rewarding different skills. So let's take a example that currently happens quite a lot (from my point of view). You see a enemy playing moving or just being static. The enemy player has not seen you yet, or he can not see you (because he could be facing the other direction). You start shooting at the player and you actually hit the player. The other player is reacting to the fire, faces you, shoots at you in full auto and actually kills you.

You 1-tapped yourself in the face with this example.

If a player has worse position than you and less time to react... and you don't kill him but he kills you, that means 1 thing: he had better aim than you. You play the same game. He has the same TTK you have. If you couldn't kill him despite being at an advantage -> your fault for having bad aim.

Here's the thing: if you failed in this situation, because you lacked skill in this area, it literally means you had less skill. Now if you would have WON this area because of different gameplay (lower TTK), that means this situation required LESS skill. Therefore the skill ceiling in this situation would be LOWER.

Agreed, great post from MeFirst, very accurate imo. Although aside from correcting benny's "no skill whatsoever" to "actually some skill", it seems to pretty much agree with him anyway.
That said, maybe off-topic, but worth mentioning I feel: at top pro level, in most competitive games/sports, the mechanical skill is already maxed for most and isn't a concern anymore, you just expect the other player to succeed every mechanical action they start. The outcome of the play then comes down to mostly skills 2 and 3. Map awareness, intuition, guessing, mindgames, that's where the top play is at. It comes down to who tricks who, who makes an error first, etc.

Edit: must say I disagree with MeFirst's TTK example though. Benz is spot on, makes no sense if that's about TTK. It rather sounds like a lag/hit reg issue. If it was about heavy armor, then yeah, if the attacker didnt have HA but the other guy did, the attacker was at a disadvantage. Not very unfair though since the vest is visible and you should know about it and all. Whether the vest is OP is another point.

Edit 2: On the very topic of TTK, have you ever played a game like CoD4 on hardcore mode? Where most any guns are 1-shot kill? I personally find it very fun, but it's because it's easy. It's relaxing to not need to aim much and get easy kills.

It baffles me that anyone would think that lower TTK = harder. It's harder for you because you're easier to kill, but as long as you have the first shot (and it's accurate) you're gonna win the gunfight. Really promotes staying hidden. Which is fine. But doesn't the game already feel that way? If I show my face, 7 times out of 10 I get 1 or 2-shot. 3 times out of 10, I live, but I blame that on poor aim or bad reg. Because most times I don't even get hit.
I just believe that the issue is rather with hit reg/lag or heavy armor rather than the current bullet damage/player health.

last edited by Coachon

Why do so many want 1-hit kills?

@coachon even if he had a vest, you can argue that because of having the advantage he could have aimed for the head. See. Another skill to succeed in.

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