We want the one hit kills.

@mefirst said in We want the one hit kills.:

PS: Higher TTK/Health allows player to make mistakes in areas mentioned without being properly punished for it/rewarding the other player.

My thoughts on mistakes:

Balanced TTK allows players to comeback from a small mistake IF they make a good choice to correct the mistake. Balanced TTK does not allow player to get away with a big mistake against a similar skilled opponent who can take advantage of the mistake.

But when TTK is too low, there is not distinction between how big the mistake was. Mistake is a mistake no matter what and end result is the same level of punishment, no matter if the mistake was small or big. When there is no distinction between the level of mistakes, it actually punishes good players more than it does the bad players.

I'm gonna talk a bit about chess and how mistakes work there:

In chess, computers can calculate a way to play the game perfectly (or at least almost perfectly). When human players play against each other, they play imperfect games. The one who makes less mistakes/smaller mistakes wins (this assumes that skill level is same and other player can take advantage of those mistakes).

When the top level players play, they make VERY small imperfections in their game. If one of the players at that level makes a bigger mistake, he will most likely loose the game (thus be punished by the level of mistake) because the skilled opponent will take advantage of the mistake.

If the top player was to make similar mistake when playing against low skilled opponent, he might get away with it because the lower skilled player might not be able to take advantage of the mistake. In chess, there are a lot of different levels of mistakes. One of the skills in chess is recognizing these mistakes your opponent makes and taking advantage of them.

Good players consistently win, because they make less mistakes and those mistakes are smaller. Lower skilled players usually make bigger mistakes and more of them.

In chess, players can get away with a small mistake, but if they make big mistake, they will get punished and will most likely loose. Chess has a very high skill ceiling, it's very competitive but can still be played casually for fun. It's well balanced (even though chesspieces do OHK everytime!!). Chess is also pretty darn tactical 😉

But my main point is that when TTK is too low, it also oversimplifies mistakes done by players, which also has the effect of lowering skill ceiling.

@mefirst could you specify what kind of actions would you like to be rewarded/punished? What do you feel is a proper punishment for mistake? Or proper reward for certain action? I would like to know more, so we can talk about this more.

last edited by jensiii

-I know its a BETA (i feel like I have to start with that) 🙂

why does it feel like a hardcore COD 4 ? perhaps the sound of the weapons throws me off ? I don't know, I don't feel that 1 shot could kill. (perhaps because they are allways spraying bullets like crazy, or the fast movement).Back in Insurgency 2014 both that m16 and ak-47 sigle shots sound like they break though cement and gave you the feeling of power...again... you felt 1 WELL PLACED SHOT is enough, in this game I feel like burst mode (m16) and full auto (ak) are a MUST.Don't get me wrong I love the game,pre-orded it and I got 894 hours on it (not bragging).Iknow its a BETA, I just wanted t oxpress my opinion.

-Perhaps its the HIT REG problem ? First shot-> blodd splatter then the next 2 bullets nothing --> 3rd one kills. WOW
Did I understand correct ? there will be no AP ammo in the game ? Ok then...make the Heavy Vest more expensive 4-5 points ! And even if the player has the "heavy vest" 3 shot to kill MAX (chest area).

Still some problems after the patching (performance wise)
-My Specs : i7-6700 @ 4Ghz / 16Gb RAM @ 2133 Mhz / GTX 1080 / SSD. All this medium --> high end mPC and I have tearing and stutter on all LOW ? :))

@jensiii
I am not saying that higher TTK's are universally a bad thing, but right now there is a big dissonance for players of the previous games and what is perceived as the DNA of Insurgency.

Proper punishment in regard for Insurgency is pretty simple. The player should die or not get a kill depending on his mistake. If you you have bad positioning and you get flanked and hit, you should not be able to turn around and get the chance to turn the fight around with a lucky spray of full auto.

@mefirst ...and you shouldnt get a free kill with bad aim. If you can't kill someone that literally has to turn around before he sees you, you are just bad. Same TTK for both players.

Where's the punishment for bad aim in that example? Lol.

last edited by Benz

@mefirst said in We want the one hit kills.:

@jensiii
I am not saying that higher TTK's are universally a bad thing, but right now there is a big dissonance for players of the previous games and what is perceived as the DNA of Insurgency.

I understand what you mean. I'm very convinced that this dissonance is caused by:

  1. The hitreg issues that people are experiencing. This makes TTK feel a lot higher than it actually is and causes general frustration.
  2. Issues in movement mechanics that make the game less tactical at the moment. I listed these before in this thread.

After those are fixed, I think a lot of this dissonance will go away and these players will be a lot happier with Sandstorm.

Proper punishment in regard for Insurgency is pretty simple. The player should die or not get a kill depending on his mistake. If you you have bad positioning and you get flanked and hit, you should not be able to turn around and get the chance to turn the fight around with a lucky spray of full auto.

I agree with you that if all other things are equal, flanking player should win the situation.

And it is like this with Sandstorm, but I think hitreg has skewed these situation for some players, because I win 1on1 flanking situations and opponents die really quick no matter whether I'm using semiauto or fullauto. As long as I'm hitting. Of course if I miss my shots, I get my ass handed to me and that's how it should be 🙂

Note here: I have stated before that I haven't suffered from hitreg, that's why my experience is different. My biggest problem has been fps stuttering, but that's optimization and it's already much better after the hotfixes.

@coachon COD4's hardcore mode is a similar ttk to Insurgency. No gun in Insurgency takes five shots to kill someone with light armor (the equivalent of not running juggernaut)

@jensiii Just because you thought your argument was good and a few people agreed with you does not make it a proven, undeniable fact. It's still just an opinion.

last edited by cyoce

@cyoce insurgency 2014 has higher ttk than CoD4 hardcore, you still need more than 1 hit to kill in many situations. CoD4 hardcore rarely requires more than 1. I'm talking without involving juggernaut or armor, and with stopping power in CoD4 btw. I don't consider CoD4 very fun without using that. (It's the default damage balance in promod (competitive, with no perks involved), if that means anything.

last edited by Coachon

@coachon COD4 with stopping power is still 4 shot kills on many SMGs and assault rifles. In hardcore, most medium-to-high damage weapons one shot while lower damage ones take two. This is if they're not using jug, however.

last edited by cyoce

@cyoce said in We want the one hit kills.:

@coachon COD4 with stopping power is still 4 shot kills on many SMGs and assault rifles.

I disagree. At long range, sure, overall, CoD4 has a more varying TTK with its guns. SMGs are indeed weak quick over some distance. But most other guns are 2 or 3 hits most of the time. My point was more about CoD4 hardcore being lower TTK though. You're talking about softcore. The rest about hardcore I've already said (thus agree), although in that large post that probably not everyone bothered to read entirely.

"Fast TTK" vs. "Slow TTK" = "Teamwork" vs. "Aiming Skill"

Fast TTK =
You must trust your teammates to watch your back.
If you get ambushed from behind , your teammates must protect you.
You must work together with your teammates to survive.
If you dont work together with your teammates , you will die.
Everyone in the team must communicate and work together in order to survive.

Slow TTK =
You must trust your own aiming skill.
If you get ambushed from behind , you can just turn around and fight back.
Your aiming skill will protect you.
As long as you have good aiming skill , you don't need your teammates to protect you.
Some people will wander off by themselves.
Some people will rush to the objective.

You prefer Teamwork = You want to put your trust in your teammates = You prefer Fast TTK
You prefer Solo Roaming = You want to put your trust in your own aiming skill = You prefer Slow TTK


"Fast TTK" vs. "Slow TTK" = "Map Strategy" vs. "Aiming Skill"

Fast TTK =
You must be aware of the Map Strategy so that you don't get ambushed from behind.
You must constantly communicate with your teammates and inform each other about the enemy location.
You must plan Map Strategy with your teammates and execute the plan together.
You must work together with your teammates to control the map.
If you don't work together with your teammates , you cannot control the map.
Everyone in the team must communicate and work together in order to control every part of the map.

Slow TTK =
You must trust your own aiming skill.
If you get ambushed from behind , you can just turn around and fight back.
Your aiming skill will protect you.
As long as you have good aiming skill , you don't need your teammates to protect you.
Some people will wander off by themselves.
Some people will rush to the objective.

You prefer Map Strategy = You want to put your trust in your team strategy = You prefer Fast TTK
You prefer Solo Roaming = You want to put your trust in your own aiming skill = You prefer Slow TTK


The developers have 2 choices =

  1. Make this game "Teamwork + Map Strategy" focused Game => People who wanted "Solo Roaming + Aiming Skill" will move over to Call of Duty.

  2. Make this game "Solo Roaming + Aiming Skill" focused Game => People who wanted "Teamwork + Map Strategy" will move over to Arma.

last edited by Nick Kim

@nick-kim said in We want the one hit kills.:

Slow TTK =
You must trust your own aiming skill.
If you get ambushed from behind , you can just turn around and fight back.
Your aiming skill will protect you.
As long as you have good aiming skill , you don't need your teammates to protect you.
Some people will wander off by themselves.
Some people will rush to the objective.

It's funny you say that. While not exactly the best option, and not really viable in an actual competitive setting, in Insurgency 2014 I tend to rush a lot and succeed because: probably these players I outplay aren't always the fastest triggers, and I'm a fast trigger myself (and obviously, I play smart enough as well). I mean I tend to go solo regardless because it's fun and much more often than not, I get stuff done.

It doesn't quite happen when the opposite team has actually smart and skilled players, and/or I'm kinda carrying my team alone. But then I adapt and play more carefully.

So yeah not quite sure these last two lines apply only to slow TTK.

@nick-kim said in We want the one hit kills.:

If you get ambushed from behind , you can just turn around and fight back.
Your aiming skill will protect you.
As long as you have good aiming skill , you don't need your teammates to protect you.

Not sure I agree with this either. You saying one can consistently be alright without teammates vs ambushes? In competitive as well? It can happen, sure, but consistently? You don't always have higher aiming skill than your attackers. If they're at least as good as you, they will more likely than not win the fight, if they take you by surprise. Kind of bogus.

I played a few rounds of coop with the AK-74 with 2x Kobra which let me see and aim well. I found it incredibly unexciting to have to hit twice in the chest to kill an enemy. Where's the lethal gameplay?

New update might fix TTK, let's go!

@nick-kim

"You must trust your teammates to watch your back. No.
If you get ambushed from behind , your teammates must protect you. They won't.
You must work together with your teammates to survive. No you don't.
If you dont work together with your teammates , you will die. This is mostly true but they aren't necessary.
Everyone in the team must communicate and work together in order to survive." They should, but they don't.

Your teammates will let you down 99.99% of the time. That's why flanking or playing one man army is so effective. TTK has nothing to do about it.

"You must trust your own aiming skill. You always should.
If you get ambushed from behind , you can just turn around and fight back. <- This is very unlikely.
Your aiming skill will protect you. As it will in almost any video game.
As long as you have good aiming skill , you don't need your teammates to protect you. Who needs them?
Some people will wander off by themselves. That's every game.
Some people will rush to the objective." That's not bad.

This is how Insurgency plays and most games.

*"The developers have 2 choices =

Make this game "Teamwork + Map Strategy" focused Game => People who wanted "Solo Roaming + Aiming Skill" will move over to Call of Duty.

Make this game "Solo Roaming + Aiming Skill" focused Game => People who wanted "Teamwork + Map Strategy" will move over to Arma."*

This is your opinion, ain't nobody moving.

The 7.62 SCAR is inconsistent. Doesn't seem to kill in 1 shot.

@slazenger Interestingly enough, you're probably not suffering from a hitreg problem. Even before this patch I ran tests on disabled bots in Local Play and the SCAR-H didn't one-shot a bot to the torso who wasn't wearing any armor.

It does two-shot Heavy Armor, though.

@marksmanmax
So armor would be useless in any case if it can 2 shot kill with or without armor.

@slazenger What scares me a tad is that armor was already kind of useless. Everyone's saying it was OP but from my tests even Heavy Armor could only allow you to survive basically one extra shot from any caliber below .308 AP, with the exception of the Hi-Power which took two extra shots.

last edited by MarksmanMax

@jarple Also.

A.

FUCKING.

MEN.

I had to respond to that post on another thread as well.

last edited by MarksmanMax

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