Either remove heli or give Ins proper AA

The reason why helis are so atrocious in this game is not because of their potential to kill, but it create an extremely large area of denial for extended periods of time. Whereas Ins team has no such thing that would come close, either they have long warnings to be avoided, less time and area covered, and drones will only drop one load and buzz off. (furthermore, I'm not sure if it is a bug or intentional, but gunship missiles penetrate buildings quite easily) Not to mention if you are out in the open (especially in maps like crossings) you can easily get obliterated. And worse off, from spawn as well which is mostly open.

This creates an extreme imbalance of fire power that the Ins cannot easily deal with. Sure, you can shoot them down, but it requires specific role with specific equipment armed and ready, which is rarely the case. And even then, the heli covers such a large area which makes them difficult to hit with an RPG (especially the gunship) and not to mention they sometimes seem to dodge them, which happened quite often for me.
And yes, regular gun fire takes them down too, but it takes the entire team emptying all their ammo to get them retreat when they were about to any ways. For context, I had a bipod set up with a PKM, and emptied 2 magazines directly into it, with my team mates helping. It didn't go down, but left after it's timer.
And this is the best case scenario as well. It completely gives an upper hand for a push or a defence or just spawn wipe the entire Ins team when you put it almost anywhere on the map, which the Ins has no such thing that can be comparable.

For this to be resolved, you can add a fire-support anti air system (like Rising Storm 2 SAM) or give a dedicated AA equipment, whether it be a stinger or a Vulcan gun on a techie or stationary. Either that, it can entirely be removed since it just tilts the balance too much towards the security side. I guess it can be nerfed so that it takes time for them to find targets, or they just strafe quickly and leave like the A10 too.

Side note: also, the helicopters seems to be janky, moving rather slow than it should so that RPGs can take them down, which makes RPGs fly in a complete straight path, meaning it is also good for RPG snipe spamming, and not to mention helis are rather glitchy sometimes as well. I like the A10 and the artilleries, but helis just don't seem to fit this game at all in my opinion. At least with the current game modes that we have so far. So unless they specifically add a game mode that is more suitable, or balance things out, I would rather see them gone unfortunately. It is a shame and waste of assets, but gameplay wise, it just doesn't make sense.

last edited by io543

I agree. The insurgent team needs some sort of "Active/Responsive targeting" support like the choppers provide for Security.

One idea is that the insurgents can launch a spotter drone that roams around in the sky, and any Security forces seen in the open have mortar rounds (smaller than the Artillery mortars) called down on them. Even then if they just keep moving the mortars might never hit them, so I'm not sure it's "equivalent".

I was also thinking since Guerilla fighters/insurgents are known for their IEDs, having some sort of Support that could pepper an area with mines or Proximity IEDs (rather than having to lay them 3 at a time [max loadout] would be a great area denial.

Any other ideas?

last edited by AMURKA

There's a few things i want to bring up. The rockets from the gunship shouldn't kill you if you're inside. This isn't the frostbite engine, and there aren't destructible buildings, so you should be safe if you're' inside. IF you're 2 feet in front of a doorway however, and a rocket lands outside, you should be killed. that'd screw you up in real life.

As for balance in this asymmetrical war the game depicts, look at asymmetrical warfare to begin with. You have a dominating force with superior firepower and technological advances (helicopters). Guerrilla warfare (as depicted by the insurgents) is all about hitting the enemy FAST AND DISRUPTIVELY. While an AA system may not be incorporated into fire support itself, what WOULD balance the game play is if the time for the insurgent team's fire support to arrive....was cut in half. Drones should be near instant. Chems and mortars should arrive more quickly. Americans aren't fighting in America. The insurgents are the natives to the scenery depicted in these maps. Their artillery would be pre-positioned in these areas, and their ability to repel the attackers from their country (the security forces) would be more readily set up and in place. I think, if anything when it comes to ordering artillery of any sort on behalf of the insurgents, the rounds should start dropping after the 3rd report is heard. If we can hear the artillery firing, it should be landing MUCH sooner.

Thoughts?

@lordsiggi They DO kill you when you are inside. I have been killed on several occasions. even by a team gunship while I was inside. It could be a glitch, but not a performance issue since I've been killed while I was inside a building all game (Obj A on farm house, Ins attacking). And I get that it is supposed to be asymmetric, but there isn't anything that comes close to the effectiveness of the gunship. Or even the minigun to an extent. It did get a nerf today so we'll see, but it's just that there isn't anything to counter balance the factions. Whether it be another fire support or not. I think the faster supports for Ins could be an option, but even then, it's easier to avoid something that has less area of coverage, hitting one at a time at random spots, rather than an actively target acquiring thing that covers a lot more area for a duration, with less time to react. (remember that Artillery takes way more time to arrive after loud warnings). So even with the time decrease for motars and drones, I think that is quite irrelevant.

I would like a Insurgent's team call-in that is just a single drone that suicides into the enemy helis

why cant the drones have AI? that makes it a little fairer and realistic.

Why not have a support option "technical", where a commander can call in a Hilux pickup with a DShK to try and shoot down the chopper as a priority? That way, insurgents get a "local bonus" of being able to call out vehicle support to block ground attacks or take the focus of the helicopter, which would also make landing an RPG shot easier.

The other thing is, a real RPG actually moves quite a bit faster than in-game, it's hard to even see the thing when it's zooming along. Buffing the speed or making it somehow more accurate specifically against aircraft would be good too.

Especially considering that nearly every time I call helicopter gunship in coop, it gets shot out of the sky 9 times out of 10. If the bots get to have a high chance of downing air support, so should players.

@jballou said in Either remove heli or give Ins proper AA:

The other thing is, a real RPG actually moves quite a bit faster than in-game, it's hard to even see the thing when it's zooming along. Buffing the speed or making it somehow more accurate specifically against aircraft would be good too.

I thought that too for a while...but if we're going to have real RPGs then the next step would be to have real chopper tactics. Lets just say Apache helicopters don't just sit 100m above the enemies as they mow them down, they do it with FLIR optics from 14 miles away.... Not sure THAT would work well in the game.

Yes, agreed. Just saying that there are options to balance out the issue, especially given that security support options are vastly superior to insurgent ones.

Rocket barrage is pretty fearsome. If there was a version of that but with greater spacing between rockets (rather than almost all hitting within 10 seconds) then it would be a great way to force Security indoors for a good period of time...similar to what Helicopters do to Insurgents.

Yeah there is really no good area denial as Insurgents. Even if their thing was having drones overhead that were on station for 30 seconds, and targeted enemies in the open, that would be something that could be balanced to keep security in place.

@jballou Yes, and I've just had a match where I saw the drone in the open, see it come up to me, went inside to bait it, it blew up on the entrance and I got off scott free. So it being a only one hit thing, and being easily avoidable makes it so useless.

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