@grotesqueshadow said in New damage models are horrendously broken:
Imho he has the math wrong for the weapons that still include headshots. He should have subtracted the number of headshots from the killcount and from the hitcount to get more accurate bodyshot TTK, and that still would be inaccurate because of the number of hits that might have gone into the body before a headshot ultimately killed the player, for which there are no stats.
While his stats might not tell the exact average number of bodyshots required to kill, headshots are still a part of the TTK mechanics that affect overall TTK. Number of bodyshots to kill is still around 2 shots at the moment.
Also the ttk time he calculates is a purely theoretical value for fullauto fire that never misses a single shot, which I think is fair to say is not how this plays out for most players.
That is correct, because some players have better aim and some players have worse aim. Skill plays a factor there of course, for balancing it's much more useful, if not even necessary, to assume 100% accuracy
Otherwise it could argued that TTK should be lowered because someone has higher TTK than others because of his aim: let's say 1-hit kills was implemented all across the board and still a player can't get the kill because he misses shots. Thus his TTK is very high. Should we lower the TTK?
FAL and AKM stats are better because of lack of headshots. I think 2 shots with FAL and 3 with AKM is too much. Imho FAL should be a 1 shot because of its high caliber and low mag size, AKM 1 hit kill without armor and 2 hit kill with heavy armor or on legs (whole leg, not like it was last time I checked on bots).
I agree that some rifles could have 1-hit kill on an unarmored target in balanced TTK. I'm going to claim that 2-3 shots against armored targets would be no problem at all if there was tagging. Everyone running blindly on the open would be picked off easily. Better cover and positioning would be more beneficial.
You asked in another thread if we'd consider 2 hit kills a high ttk, and I personally can answer: yes, if I shoot a dude with a 7.62 mm round and he doesn't drop dead instantly, I'm pissed and think it's a bullshit long TTK in this game. If I then get killed immediately after, I tend to rage at the game, because I think this is super frustrating gamedesign.
I've found, that instead of raging at the gamedesign by default, I ask myself: "what could I have done something better so I could've won the situation?"
Asking myself that question every time I get killed, I start to recognize mistakes in my playing. I've noticed that there's always something I could've done better to improve my chances and me dying was not the fault of the gamedesign.
I've played some more today and had a number of situations where I've hit a dude with my rifle and saw blood splatter, but then got shot by either him or his teammate. It makes the game frustrating to me and drives me towards either camping or high ROF weapons to just dump more ammo into enemies quicker, or get lucky headshots. I don't get the argument for "higher TTK is so much better because higher skillceiling with headshots", when instead it's compensatable with things like FAL fullauto hipfire (I've gotten several kills that way and I think this feels kinda dumb, I'd much rather make semi auto OHKs instead of this) or high ROF spray hoping for lucky headshots like with the p90 aka "pro 90" in CS:GO.
Balanced TTK is actually not about raising the skill ceiling with aiming skill, even with 2-hit kills there is barely a need for anything else in aiming than good target acquitision, there's just minimal tracking and recoil control. Balanced TTK is also about making positioning more important. How is that? Because having 1-hit kills effect positioning and making mistakes in a negative way. We talked about positioning and I made post about mistakes in another thread (https://forums.focus-home.com/topic/29335/we-want-the-one-hit-kills/121?page=7).
The situation you describe, I can only imagine that happening if the enemy also spotted you at the same time you spotted him. And if you then make the decision to go against him either 1v2 or 1v1, you are relying on your AIM, not your tactical skill. Unless you're a better at aiming than your opponent, you have no advantage, except if you are in good cover and he is in the open
If you are alone against 2, you're in big disadvantage. It's normal to lose these kind of situations. You have to be in a good position so you can get away from the situation to and try to find an advantage against them.
And if you happen to flank someone and you really have a positional advantage and you get to shoot him first, even if you use semi auto, you get shoot A LOT of shots before the opponent reacts, finds you and starts shooting. Unless he can retreat to cover right away, and that would be good positioning from his part.
You said described yourself as not that good of a tactician and said that you run-and-gun a lot. I get to similar situations if I play that way as well. I'm not a good aimer so I've been always trying to improve my tactical skills. Whenever I find myself getting frustrated and dying a lot, it's because I've strayed from my tactical playstyle into running and gunning.
I've also gotten hipfire kills on very close range. Can you claim that you would be able the play only by using hipfire?
I'm still not entirely convinced that if every weapon was 1 shot kill on every hitzone regardless of armor, that everyone would be running around with only high ROF weapons and the game would be broken. The reason for that is that one of the deadliest things in the game is having to reload. I find the major advantage of semi-auto mode to be that it is more ammo conserving and thus creates less time windows in which you are vulnerable. Death-by-reload is like a meme for my gaming buddy and me because it has happend countless times to both of us.
Death-by-realod is a tactical mistake
If everything was 1 shot kill no matter what, I'd probably go pistol only again, because I have the most fun that way, or if I wanna really go tryhard, then the semi auto gun that has the biggest mag would be my choice.
Yep, 1-shot kills --> people using pistols as primary weapon --> kills the immersion for me.
With recoil turned back as high as in INS2, I'm not convinced I'd have better chances of hitting someone spraying than with semi auto.
In Sandstorm I switch back and forth constantly, depending on situation and find it kind of annoying that I can't settle on one. I don't like full-auto very much, but right now it just is plain better in many situations imho.
Yeah, I switch back and forth as well depending on the situation. And I like that! Full auto is better in some situations and semiauto is better in some. I feel that finally firing mode switch has a real meaning and use.
So in short, right now the TTK creates many gameplay situations that are very frustrating to me, if they lower the TTK I will be enjoying the game much more and I seriously doubt that it has the game-breaking consequences that some people here fear.
Well, if TTK is 2 shots, you can't really go lower unless you go 1-hit kills. And even though you doubt that there would not be game-breaking consequenses, it has been proved with logic and reason that there will be and these claims are yet to be unproven using logic and reason. I would be glad, if someone would prove that it doesn't break the game, so we just didn't have to hope that doesn't happen.
I think it is worth a try. They can always change it back if it indeed breaks the meta. If they raise the TTK further, I I'll probably stop playing. I'm not even sure that I couldn't adapt to a headshot meta, and maybe even perform better that way than I do now, but I wouldn't enjoy that kind of gameplay as much. If I wanna focus on headshots I'll play CS:GO again. That's not what I bought Insurgency for.
The only way to make headshots meaningless is to implement 1-hit kills. So even heavy armor on torso would be 1-hit kill.
If 1-hit kills is ever even tried, for me it's going to be so "immersive" to kill people by shooting their toe, when it's popping out of cover I would rather choose headshots than toeshots.
I know community fragmentation is bad, but maybe it would be best to have a separate mode that doesn't have any commander call-ins and has lower TTK (everything one or two less bullets to kill than right now, 1 min and 2 max vs armor), maybe even get rid of more of the HUD, and otherwise plays like skirmish. If that was available (lets call it HC Skirmish) I'd only play that. Player statistics will tell what the majority of the community really wants. But I don't know if that could be sustained long term with sufficient player numbers. It might not. There are very good arguments to be made against something like this. But it is also a fact, that no matter how long the TTK is, not everyone will like it, and some will leave the game because of it. I'd just rather keep the old INS2 players around than try to attract all the disgruntled BF players that are turning away from their franchise right now.
It is true, that you can never satisfy everybody.
I personally like the commander call-ins. They add immersion to combat.
Balanced TTK is hardly about trying attract BF players to this game by making the game BF-like. It's about balance which would be far from BF. If players of some other games find something from Sandstorm that they like and don't get from the other games, I think it's good.