Marksman and Bolt actions

Hey! First off I just want to say that I am really pleased with how this game is turning out to be.

I am a long time fps player with a lot of competitive experience over the years, and I got some suggestions to the Marksman class, more specifically the bolt action rifles.

Seen as this game is highly lethal and very fast paced, I would like to see the bolt actions being a more reliable one shot option than they currently are. In Firefight gamemode (Which is arguably the most competitive mode) hence why its the one chosen for 5v5 ranked. I could easily see the marksman class being the downfall of a team and not a tool. I would like to see the bolt actions be a 100% reliable one shot if you hit in stomach or higher. (Hitting the arms should not grant kill).

I think this change would interest players more into playing and becoming good with the class.

Greetings
Freddy M

@freddy-m Technically just because it's a bolt action doesn't mean it should do more damage (at the end of the day it's still firing a .308), but this is one instance where gameplay balance should trump authenticity. Otherwise, there's no real point to the bolt action rifles when you could just use a DMR instead.

TBH I'd be perfectly fine with them removing the 2 bolt actions so we can stop having this debate. Just swap them out for something that ISN'T 40+ years old. The Mosin was designed in the 1920s for fucks sake.

Then perhaps taking the sniper class wouldn't be an act of self-inflicted pain.

last edited by AMURKA

@quadsword said in Marksman and Bolt actions:

@freddy-m Technically just because it's a bolt action doesn't mean it should do more damage (at the end of the day it's still firing a .308), but this is one instance where gameplay balance should trump authenticity. Otherwise, there's no real point to the bolt action rifles when you could just use a DMR instead.

The bolt actions rifles have more reliable accuracy than semi-autos because a bolt action rifle is like 80% barrel and bolt handle/carrier/firing pin/breach and 20% stock & attachments, whereas semi autos are not a lot different to their assault/battle rifle counterparts and some of them have a floating barrel which isn't fixed so it can flex (minutely) or the rifle will be made up of a lower and an upper which are fixed together by pins which creates more wiggle room for flexing of the platform under sustained rapid fire. Bolt actions are lighter because they're of a simpler design with not as many moving parts like fire selector switches and internal gubbins like bushes and bearings, in Insurgency boltys are more accurate and lighter, they pack the same punch as the semi-auto equivalent. (Moisin and SVD are not on equal grounds, but the M40 and M14 EBR are.)

I'd hope NWI made Sandstorm the same as Insurgency when it comes to semi-autos vs boltys as a bolt action rifle will perform well in a Sniper (rifle) role; slow but efficient at long range, and a semi-auto will perform well in a Designated Marksman (rifle) role, faster than the bolty counterpart but less accurate the higher the ROF goes, snipers do more long range recon while dmrs are better suited at laying fire down quick at medium to long range targets.

But like you said, there is little reason to take a bolty over a semi-auto - especially if you can spare the weight and the supply points as we aren't playing on maps like those found in Battlefield 2 so we don't really need sniper rifles, yet we still have the option because some people like to use their favourite bolty and their playstyle is reflective of their weapon choice - I'll always take the SVD or m14ebr over the m40/moisin because rate of fire helps me to correct mistakes and I like to shoot as many targets as I can when I can, plus the SVD and me go back a long ways to the original Insurgency mod, I even pick the SVD over other more modern semi-autos in games because I've been trained how to use the pso-1 sights in-built range finder, so it's as good to me as a m14ebr with a rangefinder laser attachment. (useless in Ins, but useful in ArmA)


I would like to think that NWI are balancing all the weapons and also giving us AP ammo like in Insurgency, so that's when the bolt actions will be your one hit kill gloryboys if you go for center of mass or the head, I know the moisin has AP currently but nothing else does? (not checked all weapons)

As the game is atm with the current maps; they aren't designed for snipers or anything long range like some maps in Insurgency, sure there are sections where having a high magnification scope is great but the rest of the time you're engaging in cqb to medium range and there are so many invisible walls blocking you from finding potentially amazing spots with a sniper/dmr, personally I don't ever feel the need get out the dmr/snipers as the objectives are mostly inside or on a crest.

If boltys are kings of accuracy then NWI can't neglect the semi-autos - the SVD is my first love due to my time spent owning noobs back on Insurgency Modern Combat with it on Sinjar and Almaden - it's like the balance between m40 and m14 ebr, one has 15/20/25 rounds with a 5 round internal magazine, the other has 3/4/5 20 bullet magazines, one has a slow rof and insane accuracy, the other can spew bullets like a m134 vulcan minigun but your accuracy will be trash as the recoil is a biatch, both can kill in one hit, both can also fail to kill in one hit depending on hit location/latency/desync, the m40 is cheaper but she is slower and lighter than her semi-auto counterpart.

I hope NWI make every weapon great cus atm it feels to me like the G3 is king at everything whereas the rest of the rifles are weak, they're expensive, they lack power and they have poor recoil/spread, and even comparing it to a snoiper/dmr, I'd take the SVD and the PSO-1 sight anyday if playing on SINJAR or another long range friendly map like Buhriz but due to the CQB nature of Sandstorm the G3 and a eotech is all i need atm, and I hope that changes before release.

PEACE

last edited by Depleted

Thanks for the answers! Quadsword, "Just because its a bolt action doesnt mean it should do more damage" Yes it should.

And heres why.

Bolt rifles have longer barrels = More velocity = Bigger impact energy.
Altough I dont know this, but I would asume that the m24 in game fires the .300 Winchester Magnum cartridge, which in comparison really cant be matched with an AK round. (7.62x39).
Also the powder ratio is usually loaded higher in platforms like these.

You mention game balance? You think its balanced that Bolt actions cant do a reliable one shot? That is literally the very opposite of "Balanced" I agree with Depleted that every weapon should have their spot in game. I also agree with him that the maps arent really designed to be played as a sniper role should be. But that doesnt mean it cant be good. I have found plenty of routes in Firefight gamemode, where I can rush at the beginning to get into a spot where I can pick off 1-3 targets within 30 seconds of the match. Which is very valuable for my team.

I am an avid rifle shooter irl, and I compete in something called PRS. (Google it) I have shot several thousands of rounds trough bolt actions. I know very well what they are capable off doing to steel targets (Would just imagine what they would do to a human body. With or without "Armor") That so called armor plating you wear in your chestrig cant really stop a bullet from something designed to shoot far. As an example my current rifle is chambered in 6.5x55. And I am currently shooting a load with v0 = 943 m/s. Nothing can stop that really, atleast nothing that can be weared in combat.

@freddy-m There may be a miscommunication here. I was actually agreeing with you in my original post about the bolt action rifles being too weak.

Nevertheless, I appreciate you setting me straight.

My apologies then!

I am just afraid that the Marksman class in general will be frowned upon, specially when it comes to the Ranked 5v5 Firefight. Which I am very much looking forward to play regarding my background.

Thanks

So far, I have played quite a large proportion of my games as the marksman class. So far I have not had very many 2 shots with the bolt action rifles, it seems like most of them I have had are because I hit heavy armour centre mass. I have very often hit players in the arms/weapon pointing round a corner and scored a good kill, even with the SVD.

I do have to say the M14 EBR is a different matter entirely, it seems to take 2 or even 3 hits to take someone down with any armour on entirely. Even when I get down to 2x scope distance I will still take a greased, long barrel boltie over the M14.

I dont know much irl physics about guns but I take it the M14 is a far shorter range weapon than the SVD due to its smaller round?

I think the Marksman class is suffering at the moment because it's stuck with really terrible options all around. The bolt actions are a laugh...(and even if you think they should do more damage, they arguable are sold old and outdated that they shouldn't even be in the game)

The higher rate of fire rifles for the sniper classes all SUCK. The SVD is passable but you're almost always reloading. The security sides options are even worse.

TBH the best option for sniper at the moment in the game, is to take Rifleman class (for security), take an m16a3, stick a decent scope on it, drum mags, and a bipod/foregrip.

Now you're a headshot machine with 50 rounds, instead of that bullshit 5 round bolt action crap. If you miss a shot, just fucking put another one in him.... whereas if they don't go down to a bolt, it's a full second before you can follow up.

There's a REASON bolt actions have fallen to the wayside. They objectively are worse, and less versatile than more modern weapons. The only people still using them are hunters and competitive marksmen. But I can guarantee you NONE of those two categories is ever using a Mosin.

I vote for their removal entirely from the game. It's not like there are actually any maps where they're useful...and then we could stop this childish "I want mah bolt action to be an AWP...1 hit kill every time" crap.

last edited by AMURKA

Wanting a balanced game is "childish"... okay then.

@amurka said in Marksman and Bolt actions:

I vote for their removal entirely from the game. It's not like there are actually any maps where they're useful...and then we could stop this childish "I want mah bolt action to be an AWP...1 hit kill every time" crap.

Up until this moment I was mostly agreeing with you, but whats with your desire to remove everything you, personally, dont like? First supressors, now bolt action rifles. You need to go get that checked out or something lol.
Bolt action rifles are simply fun sometimes. Running around with mosin rifle with no scope and screaming "allah akbar" - priceless. More guns = better. Hell, if insurgents will get a black powder musket i ll take it out.

@amurka said in Marksman and Bolt actions:

TBH I'd be perfectly fine with them removing the 2 bolt actions so we can stop having this debate. Just swap them out for something that ISN'T 40+ years old. The Mosin was designed in the 1920s for fucks sake.

Then perhaps taking the sniper class wouldn't be an act of self-inflicted pain.

It was designed in year 1891

last edited by Jesus Man

@AMURKA Wow, so aggressive. Careful otherwise you might end up in a shouting match in another topic...

I will try what you suggest with the M16a3 thats an interesting idea.

Personally I cannot weigh in on if bolt action rifles are still commonly in use or not but I do think that real life applications and engagement distances are mirrored in this game so its a balancing act/issue I guess. As for the maps, once workshop gets up and running and more maps are added we may find definite long range duck shoot maps or whatnot.

By the sound of that you are saying I am guessing (don't shoot me if I am wrong, but I am guessing you may) you are an aggressive rifleman who uses a 2x at least so I can see why you would find the marksman class quite at odds to your play style.

@haggison said in Marksman and Bolt actions:

I dont know much irl physics about guns but I take it the M14 is a far shorter range weapon than the SVD due to its smaller round?

The 7.62x54R (SVD, Mosin, PKM, etc.) and 7.62x51/.308Win (M14) are similar in ballistics with an edge often given to the 54R. Just do a search and you'll find many "vs" discussions on gun and/or ammo forums with ballistic charts, etc. I've heard several mention that the 54R is between the .308Win and 30.06 in regard to power.

You can find specifics on all that if you really want to but in distances within what we're talking in Sandstorm, there would be little if any difference in that regard. .....but we're talking about a game where they need to take some liberties to try and add balance to the play. I just happen to like that NWI tries to keep it as real as they can at the same time.

@jesus-man said in Marksman and Bolt actions:

It was designed in year 1891

.....and still in use in some war zones today including the Middle East regardless of what certain individuals want to believe. They made millions of Mosins and they are still easy enough to find. Cheap, simple, powerful, reliable and accurate. I actually saw a picture once of a Syrian rebel with an STG44 believe it or not.

Also, the idea I read earlier that "bolt actions" are antiquated and no longer used in modern militaries is both ignorant and false. ....but given the source, I'm not surprised. There are still advantages to BAs snipers prefer (some of those reasons were mentioned in this thread). Also, the M24 (currently in use by the U.S.) is essentially a militarized version of the popular Remington 700 rifle used by many hunters. ....go figure.

last edited by Kean_1

@kean_1 Oh really? The M24 is still being used by the Army? lol ok, I mean that's technically correct (if you count a modified and upgraded M24 as still being an "M24"... Here's some information I had to provide to another guy who was arguing the same shit you are. The Army, (like almost every other fighting force on the planet) has been looking to phase out its bolt action snipers with semi-auto snipers that excel in far more varied situations.

The M24 is horribly outdated and almost never used. It's decades out of date.

The M24 has been being phased out for a long time. From its wikipedia page: The M24 SWS was to be replaced with the M110 Semi-Automatic Sniper System, a contract awarded to Knight's Armament Company. However, the Army still continued to acquire M24s from Remington until February 2010 and upgraded to the A2 and M24E1 standard in many cases, continuing to serve.[6] The Army chose to upgrade its entire M24 rifle fleet to the M2010 Enhanced Sniper Rifle, with the final M24 being converted in April 2014.[7])

If you guys are so obsessed with one-hit kills, just take the shotgun instead. You also get 8 rounds instead of 5 and only at the most extreme ranges (all the maps are small enough) will it take maybe 2 shots or 3. The shotguns also fire faster than the bolt actions...

last edited by AMURKA

@amurka

I don't know why I even bother but here it goes.....

Yes, the M2010 is a variant of the M24 as the M24 is a variant of the 700. ....and yes, these bolt actions rifles are still being used today. As for the future of BAs in the modern military, I guess you better send a letter to the USMC because apparently they just aren't as smart as you are. Later this year the USMC is looking to replace their M40s (yes, another variant of Remington's popular bolt action rifle) with a Mk13 version.

This isn't to say that militaries are not considering adopting more semi auto solutions but they are not necessarily interested in dropping their BAs either or not considering new variants in the future. .....and even though the USMC is also adopting the M110, they have said that they do not consider it a replacement for their M40s.

@amurka said in Marksman and Bolt actions:

@kean_1 Oh really? The M24 is still being used by the Army? lol ok, I mean that's technically correct (if you count a modified and upgraded M24 as still being an "M24"... Here's some information I had to provide to another guy who was arguing the same shit you are. The Army, (like almost every other fighting force on the planet) has been looking to phase out its bolt action snipers with semi-auto snipers that excel in far more varied situations.

The M24 is horribly outdated and almost never used. It's decades out of date.

Well, army is not the only force that uses weapons. And in game we are, after all, a security force, not US military.

... Here's some information I had to provide to another guy who was arguing the same shit you are.

Bolt action rifles are still more superior to semi-auto at long ranges and can use wider range of loads. At least some of them.
And that part about replacing stuff in army - it does not work like that. They may be wanting to replace something, but "want","can" and "will" are different things.
"The Army, (like almost every other fighting force on the planet) has been looking to phase out its bolt action snipers with semi-auto snipers that excel in far more varied situations" since the WWII but it did not work out so far. Unlucky heh?

Every Job has a proper tool. Show me a guy at a long range contest(and Im speaking about 800+ meters), for example, who professionally shoots with a semi-auto rifle. You ll have a hard time searching for such a man. Reason - semi auto "sniper rifles" are not sniper rifles at all. They are called DMR (designated marksman rifle) trying to be mobile and accurate at same time, but in the end its just a secondary weapon in a sniper pair and a support weapon in a squad.

So back to the m24(variants) replacement rifle:
(Lol, if you ll search it in google it says DMR all over it.)
0_1537176541849_44a10598-111f-4e1c-98aa-937dbddff746-image.png

-"The G28 is designed to provide accuracy of 1.5 MOA." (from your article)

0_1537176479931_852566c6-08e8-4808-898f-db71bba53dfb-image.png
Btw basic version of this rifle(HK417) is in service since 2005 in Germany, so its not that new.

0_1537176401879_b309cced-1702-4a51-a07e-a21932a264cf-image.png
-M24. According to Remington Arms each rifle is tested to meet (and typically exceeds) the requirement to fire ≤ 1 MOA (less than a 2-inch shot group at 200 yards) before being released for fielding. (from wiki)

So this old mammoth is more "accurate" than a modern "sniper rifle" as you call it.

In March 2018, the Army announced that a version of the G28/M110A1 would be issued to infantry squads as the service's standard Squad Designated Marksman Rifle (SDMR). Issuing a 7.62 mm SDMR is meant to increase individual squads' ability to defeat enemy body armor that standard 5.56 mm rounds cannot penetrate.[12] The M110A1-based rifle will replace the M14 EBR(its not replacing m24 variants), in use by the Army since 2009, but because it was based on an operational needs statement it had to be turned in by units at the end of a combat deployment. Unlike the sniper configuration, the marksman version is fitted with a simpler rifle optic instead of a telescopic sight to make quick adjustments between 0-600 meters, and it fires M80A1 Enhanced Performance Rounds rather than sniper rounds; it will be fielded with a suppressor to make the marksman less identifiable with louder 7.62 mm rounds. Roughly 6,000 are planned to be fielded with one per squad in infantry, engineer and scout formations starting in late 2018. (wiki)

So, you say, that rifle(g28/m110 variants), which complements bolt action rifle(m24 variants) in sniper pair, as a support weapon for the sniper pair, is supposed to replace the main sniper rifle(with potentially more punch and higher accuracy)?

Well that is just dumb at this moment in time. And bolt action rifle will not be replaced until semi auto will start achieving same long range accuracy results.

P.S. Judging your google skills and common sense in general, I decided to tell you, that MOA is not a bird in this case.
https://www.nssf.org/shooting/minute-angle-moa/

last edited by Jesus Man

I find it funny you mentioning the m24 as being outdated. You do know that all m24, m40, m2010 etc. Are all based on the original Remington 700 action? That technically means they are all the exact same "rifle" Only in different chassis systems and with different barrel profiles. There where mainly 2 version used of the m24. One chambered in 7.62x51 (.308w) As mentioned above. But there where also a variant chambered in 300 win mag. Which is definetly something you wouldnt wanna stand in front of. Hell you could even get a variant chambered in 338 lapua.

I am fairly new but I have seen his name multiple times already. I consider myself experienced on this topic about Precision rifles and their use. Like I mentioned above I am an avid PRS shooter myself.

I enjoy discussions, dont get me wrong. But It has to be relevant to what the thread is actually about.

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