The gunplay RNG is too high.

Many people, including myself, have felt that the RNG in the gunplay is too high. For instance, the suppsression and stamina sway. There is no real way to really try and counter these things, other than to “don’t get suppressed”, or “stop sprinting then”
While I do agree that these are there to stop players from playing stupid and running everywhere, it does make the gunplay feel way too floaty and inconsistent. I think that NWI should either

A. Remove/dilute the sway of the guns (back to standalone levels)
or
B. Make the sways somewhat predictable. (ex. whenever you are out of stamina, instead of randomly swaying, they should make it consistently and rythmically move up and down, as to represent the player breathing extremely hard. )

In my opinion, it should be option B, as it does technically raise the skill ceiling, but some people might see it as “taking away from the authenticity of the experience.”

In any case, I really appreciate the hard work that NWI has put forth. Keep it up guys.

last edited by cauce

Well for one, suppression is nowhere near as effective as it should be. Too often I'm unloading (with LMGs most of the time, mind you) at cover where people are hiding and they pop out with a 100 percent accurate headshot on me. I think more detriments need to be added there.

I think the stamina sway is fine. The maps are SO DAMN SMALL that sprinting around is usually out of impatience more than anything else. It DOES stop players from running everywhere, and it works quite well atm. It makes no sense to give those people a predictable pattern that they can learn to effectively remove the negatives of sprinting. If it becomes a rhythmic pattern, its easy to learn and compensate for if you know exactly how the gun is going to sway. This wanting of a guaranteed pattern is dangerously similar to the way CSGO works. People don't bother to stop running around, they just lean the recoil pattern.

And how is the skill ceiling raised from making it easier to sprint and shoot? If anything it lowers it as now proper tactical movement is less incentivized. You SHOULD be moving slow unless you think you're in the clear, and the consequences from thinking you're in the clear when you aren't should be harsh.

I don't think it feels floaty at all, I dunno where people are getting this from. A predictable pattern would make it feel much more "gamey" and less immersive IMO, it's just one more meta to memorize.

@marxman-lmc said in The gunplay RNG is too high.:

And how is the skill ceiling raised from making it easier to sprint and shoot?

Having a somewhat reproducible pattern introduces another way the player and game could interact with each other, and that's what a skill ceiling is -- how many ways a game mechanic could be played with.

The maps are SO DAMN SMALL that sprinting around is usually out of impatience more than anything else.

Uh....

If anything it lowers it as now proper tactical movement is less incentivized

I don't think it feels floaty at all, I dunno where people are getting this from.

That's not what I mean. Proper tactical movement is just as important as it was before. The idea of reducing/replacing RNG in the sways of the gun just allows the player to be able to make killing more consistent. All RNG does it make the gunplay less responsive to the player, which is why people think gunplay is floaty.

@cauce said in The gunplay RNG is too high.:

@marxman-lmc said in The gunplay RNG is too high.:

Having a somewhat reproducible pattern introduces another way the player and game could interact with each other, and that's what a skill ceiling is -- how many ways a game mechanic could be played with.

ADSing after sprinting is not a mechanic that should have a skill ceiling attached to it. It should be a no-no, and if you win over someone who isn't moving, and is behind cover, it should be 100 percent luck. The current mechanic incentivizes you to go slower because no matter how much you try and master the sway after sprinting it wont help. All this suggestion does it make sprinting more viable.

That's not what I mean. Proper tactical movement is just as important as it was before. The idea of reducing/replacing RNG in the sways of the gun just allows the player to be able to make killing more consistent. All RNG does it make the gunplay less responsive to the player, which is why people think gunplay is floaty.

I think floaty is a bad term for it. I think of ARMA when I think of "floaty". I think movement, ADSing, and gunplay feels very good right now, and RNG isn't neccesarily a bad thing. I don't want to be able to count my rounds to kill someone. This isn't CSGO, consistency is not realistic in the slightest. It feels lame to know that exactly 2 shots will kill someone in the chest no matter where I hit them or that I can rely on the sights to do the same figure-8 every single damn time. The game has always leaned towards realism over gamey-ness, and all this talk about wanting things to be the same is concerning. I think ALL gunplay should be slightly RNG. Combat is not consistent IRL, and it shouldn't be in game. Gets stale real fast.

last edited by Marxman LMC

@marxman-lmc

Keep in mind that this game is supposed to be a balance between realism and normal FPS gameplay mechanics. Let’s give you he benefit of the doubt and say that RNG does somehow give a sense of realism to any game. It still wouldn’t matter, as the devs are pushing forward that they want this game to be competitively viable. In order for it to be competitively viable, it has to stray as far away from RNG as possible. Imagine your money being on the line. Would you want to bet on a game in which one of the core aspects of it has RNG? I know that removing RNG would take away from the realism aspect somewhat, but it’s a sacrifice well made. (even then, they could just do option A to avoid this whole process, but that would be letting go of quite an interesting game mechanic)

@cauce said in The gunplay RNG is too high.:

@marxman-lmc

Keep in mind that this game is supposed to be a balance between realism and normal FPS gameplay mechanics. Let’s give you he benefit of the doubt and say that RNG does somehow give a sense of realism to any game. It still wouldn’t matter, as the devs are pushing forward that they want this game to be competitively viable. In order for it to be competitively viable, it has to stray as far away from RNG as possible. Imagine your money being on the line. Would you want to bet on a game in which one of the core aspects of it has RNG? I know that removing RNG would take away from the realism aspect somewhat, but it’s a sacrifice well made. (even then, they could just do option A to avoid this whole process, but that would be letting go of quite an interesting game mechanic)

The game can still be competitive with it's current systems. I don't know what you're missing about the point I'm trying to make, but making sprinting and shooting a learn-able skill takes away from the gameplay the game is trying to cultivate. Everything you are wanting changed can be solved by not moving so fast. I died A LOT in the first week of beta because I was trying to sprint everywhere and getting punished for it. After I started sprinting when I really thought I was clear, or I thought I could make it across someone's field of fire, my score went up dramatically. You should be moving at standard pace most of the time, it makes shooting a breeze. Ever walked around a corner ready to fire and seen someone who was sprinting around it? How many times have they won? I wouldn't imagine very many. That's the way it should be.

I played tournaments for money back before INS2, during the INSMOD days. I can tell you with 100 percent certainty that it was small squad tactics and large overarching strategy that won games. Learning the sway of a gun meant nothing if no one was covering you or you were up against multiple people. Thats what I'm trying to get through to you. These small mechanics that people think determine their life and death really don't. Your positioning for the last 5 minutes is much more important than the sway of the sights.

RNG encourages proper positioning and taking steps to eliminate as much chance as possible. The guy waiting in a dark corner for the guy sprinting should win 100 percent of the time if he's a competent shooter. People say this encourages camping, but thats what Objectives are for, and camping the Obj is just smart play.

I definitely agree. RNG is almost always a detrimental mechanic that reduces the skill ceiling and makes the game frustrating.

@marxman-lmc Suppression right now is far too effective. Suppression doesn't need a debuff at all. Just add a visual and audio filter like in Insurgency. Being scared of getting killed forces people to take cover or die. That's suppression. If they're already in a gunfight with you, the suppression mechanic would only come into play if you miss. Players shouldn't be rewarded for missing their shots by applying RNG to the other guy's gun.

I honestly don't see sway as a problem once you are fimilar with the game mechanics.

@ctbear1996 that's the problem: there's nothing "familiarity" can do to mitigate RNG. It cannot be controlled because it goes in a different direction each time.

@cyoce That's why I suggested different armor/ no armor should have different stamina systems before, without scarficing the game element, it also adds more play styles

@ctbear1996 it needs to be removed entirely. A "game element" that is designed poorly deserves to be sacrificed.

@cyoce You are entitled to your opinion, I don't think it should be removed but should be adjusted, anyway, let's see what devs do to them.

@vengefulmosquito
Random Number Generator. For example, dice are RNGs because they “generate” a random number between 1 and 6 when you roll them.

It seems to be used in place of the word “randomness” in most of the posts in this thread (incorrectly), which is probably the source of confusion.

last edited by EyeofHorus

@eyeofhorus oh that. Yeah, i understand now, almost all games have random elements.

Suppression shouldn't even be a thing.

If you get shot at in real life, your aim doesn't just magically start swaying around. And your vision doesn't go blurry (okay maybe if you're being bombed you'll be shaking from the shockwave).

I get the "artistic" effect of being shot at but yea... it's definitely too much and not fun. Especially because you have to run 5x more in Sandstorm than in Source to get to the objective because everything is spread out more.

last edited by Link

@link
You lost me when you related suppression to having to run further. Are you saying that running further causes you to get suppressed more or did you begin to talk about the sway that results from stamina?

For the record, I don’t have a problem with weapon sway resulting from sprinting (this was in ins: source too). I do have a problem with not being able to focus at all after a certain time sprinting. I think shortening the length of time you can focus after sprinting is a good balance. For example, the sway from sprinting can be mitigated by focusing, but you’re still punished for sprinting by having a shorter focus time (that could end with larger sway). But not being able to focus at all is just annoying.

last edited by EyeofHorus

Focus aiming exists for a reason, reduce swaying

@eyeofhorus I am saying that stamina sway is more in Sandstorm AND it is more frequent that you are fully exhausted in Sandstorm because the maps are larger and objectives more spread out / lot of open terrain you have to run across or be shot. Because there is a ton of open terrain and you have to run far distances, you do have a chance of being suppressed more often. The suppression sway is much stronger in Sandstorm than in Source. So the sway mechanics are greater in Sandstorm by a far amount AND they happen more often because of the map layouts.

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