Disable some information in the leaderboard in COOP

@grumf said in Disable some information in the leaderboard in COOP:

If you let them have access to dick-measuring tools, they will keep seeking performance so they can measure the size of their ego

I think this is a really good summary of the problem. I don't necessarily think that a complete removal of a scoring element is the greatest idea, after all being at the top of the leaderboard is a good feeling, but perhaps making it so that there are multiple elements you could be #1 in, not just overall score. I like the tags at the end of the match. By removing the scoring, but at the end of the match, showing players all the tags they earned, not just 1 tag (kind of like in DOI), you can reflect on all the things you excelled at in the match.

@painafterdeath Your are perfectly right. Communication is key to great cooperation. Yet as you say, it's not always possible to talk. In addition to that, not everybody speaks or understands English, especially on EU servers, which gather players from numerous nationalities and languages, and many won't feel like following orders from total strangers. The game then has to adapt to that.

In a game that's built around the idea of communicating like Squad, people know what to expect and act accordingly (well... at least they try), but in Insurgency... The game is much faster, action-oriented, and this fosters solo-playing even when in a team. That's why the game has to redesign the way it glorifies individuals over the team.

@thehappybub "after all being at the top of the leaderboard is a good feeling"
Yeah. It's a good but egoistic and unnecessary feeling that conflicts with the very notion of what is supposed to be cooperation. Attributing all the merits to one particular player because he was better than his teammates is, in that specific context, very toxic and damaging for gameplay. Having multiple elements would make things even worse. They would just try to be #1 in every single one of them.

Being #1 is a distraction. It's virtual self-gratification fapping, in more "raw" terms. For your team to be as efficient as it can, everyone needs to focus on serving the team, not themselves. Even when that means allowing someone to blow up all caches since he's the only one to have C4, for instance. And not throwing a molotov on him, TKing, just to grab more points.

And keep in mind that I'm only talking about COOP mode. Keeping a personnal stats record "to know if I'm getting better" is quite the bullshitery nobody needs in that mode. Does it really boosts your ego that much, knowing you were better than bots ? (not asking you personally).
Everyone, unless in a shitty day or the bots are aiming gods with a tenth of the reaction time a normal player would have, is better than bots. Being #1 just serves as an ego booster, a proof that you made it better than your teammates. Doesn't prove that you're an actual good player...

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@grumf said in Disable some information in the leaderboard in COOP:

It's not the leaderboard's fault!
It's the selfish players fault by not waiting for the team to move up
and not covering anyone while moving up
or covering someone who is planting the bomb.

If you believe they are motivated by the points then you will agree that awarding points for team gameplay would encourage them to do the things mentioned above and reward them for not being selfish.

@focusaf What extra points ? There would be no points at all, you wouldn't earn "extra points" by doing whatever to begin with.

The extra points that would be awarded for doing the things mentioned above.
Extra as in, on-top of the points just given for blowing cache and killing players and getting kill assists, new points system.
Many games award players for saving another being shot at.
There could be a zone around the cache where even more points are awarded for killing enemies in that zone,
and more again for killing enemy shooting at the bomb planter.

The leaderboard would only show this (just imagine that with the ingame interface) :

Security Team (or Insurgent Team) : 67 kills ; 19 deaths ; 11 objectives.

Might as well just say "Security Team wins" How boring can you get?
('67 kills ; 19 deaths ; 11 objectives' for the team is irrelevant to everyone).

Individual players' stats would not be displayed. Plus, one would have to test removing member-based leaderboard in coop for at least a few months in order to know whether or not it can change people's attitude, so I don't get how you want anyone to bring you "evidence" that it works when you don't want anyone to try it...

I played on a co-op server for several years and the admins implemented this where K:D was not shown and it made no difference at all, so I have that evidence that it doesn't change anything... what evidence do you have that it does?

A better allocation of points is bullshit. Insurgency Source already does that and it serves no purpose. People still are rushing through the map, often getting killed, just to be the one to blow all caches and be the MVP.

Your logic is ass-backwards! Again, it's the points that are causing players to rush past enemies and blow caches so they can show off. Blocking the leader-board will do nothing to change the way they play but it will take something away from all the players that like to see the scores.
Insurgency2 Source doesn't have a point system that rewards team-play either. It gives a very high amount of points for blowing the cache too, while doing nothing to reward teamplay. So I can't see how you can even try to use that as an example of anything.

Better allocation of points like
LESS FOR BLOWING THE CACHE
and adding in points for the things mentioned above like
TEAM-PLAY REWARDS would.

If there can not be an MVP and if nobody can display their points/K:D/objectives in the leaderboard as a kind of hubris trophy, why would they rush through the map getting killed over and over again ? No one will see that they are top. Only that they keep dying because tey rush too much. They would only be seen as shitty players.

OMG DO YOU EVEN LOGIC? No, they wouldn't be seen as shitty players because, if you get your way, no one will even see their deaths because no one will see their K:D because the leader-board will not show their K:D, because you want it blocked!

(They will probably see no point to anything and just start to mess with others players enjoyment of the game. Or just continue to cap every point and no one will even know who the ass-hat is, so they can't even avoid playing with them in the future).

PS The people I play with cherish teamplay and it's fun to congratulate players for 0 deaths or other stuff.
and some players like to have a gauge to measure themselves by as they learn to play and continue to get better and don't give a hoot about how they compare to others or about showing off.

Blocking the leaderboard is removing a whole bunch of players enjoyment who like to see their stats while doing nothing to encourage teamplay while sticking your head in the sand.

@focusaf Leaderboard is part of the problem, mate. Of course individuals have their part of reponsability, but the fact that the leaderboard acts like a podium encourages them to compete against their own team members. Their attitude is the reflection of the way the game was built. Modifying rules could be a solution, but not in that case. Such individualistic mentalities were forged since Insurgency Source, and there is no way of going back now. Even if they are at the bottom of the leaderboard, the simple fact that they have a higher K:D/objectives than the rest will still be enough for them to keep playing like that. If you think that I think they are motivated by the points, you clearly misunderstood what I'm trying to explain from the very begining.

Plus, don't you find it sad having a system that would artificially drive people to play as a team, sometimes against their will (with a ranking system, they will still try to be #1 anyway) in place of a system that would naturally make discourage people to play solo ? That's a total lack of faith in players, in my opinion. Why is it that the "they won't do anything unless they get rewarded" mentality always prevails ?...

And I may repeat what I've said about extra points. It's useless. Why would they want to have more points ? Solo-ing the game will give them points before their teammates have a chance to get some. They will still play as suicidal lone wolves, because if they don't get extra-points, their teammates won't earn many. They would blow up caches alone, bringing explosives, and none would have time to cover them anyway. No extra points for them, but no extra-points for the rest of the team either. They will however still earn points for completing objectives and killing enemies.

Might as well just say "Security Team wins" How boring can you get?
('67 kills ; 19 deaths ; 11 objectives' for the team is irrelevant to everyone).

If you are so attached to the individual stats leaderboard that its removal would make you bored, I think you should reconsider what fun is. I'd even start to believe you precisely are the type of guy I'm trying to change the behaviour of by proposing this new way of doing coop...

I played on a co-op server for several years and the admins implemented this where K:D was not shown and it made no difference at all, so I have that evidence that it doesn't change anything... what evidence do you have that it does?

Never saw that. Could be making that up and I wouldn't know. I trust you on this one though, since it's not unbelievable, but this doesn't do it. It was a custom server. Official servers and most other custom servers still had a leaderboard. How are people supposed to change if 99% of time, they compete against their own team, and can only get to a server that has a "no K:D" rule if they chose the only right one in the humongous list of custom servers ? Plus, it's not only about K:D.

OMG DO YOU EVEN LOGIC? No, they wouldn't be seen as shitty players because, if you get your way, no one will even see their deaths because no one will see their K:D because the leader-board will not show their K:D, because you want it blocked!

Yeah. Of course players' names could still be visible in the leaderboard, classified in alphabetical order, so when somebody dies, just like it works right now, their name would fade in grey.

As for the rest, I think I made my point clear enough in this post and other posts. The main problem of your system is that it doesn't prevent competition between teammates, and adds a ton of work for the devs to create a vast ammount of new ways to calculate and award points, while still being reward-based. My system just neuters competition and makes cooperation more natural. The goal isn't to totally get rid of all asshats. Whatever the system is, asshats and trolls will always be there to piss people off. The goal is just to make players slowly realise that scoring isn't necessary to have fun, and being #1 isn't the only way to feel good about yourself.

They can still have their scoring fun in PVP anyway.

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@thehappybub said in Disable some information in the leaderboard in COOP:

@grumf more often than not the people don't stare at the guy rigging, they chuck their molly anyway. I like the mechanic just because you don't have to go scower the map for despawning nades and mollies if you happen to be last man and have to blow a cache. Still, that doesn't change that points should be awarded teamwide more often. Versus is where you try to be top of the leaderboard, that shouldn't be how coop works and point distribution should reflect that.

totally agree with this

@grumf

Not showing any kind of point system in coop would be great. A simple "Mission Accomplished", "Choose Next Map" is all I'd really need. An early hardcore tactical shooter like Ghost Recon 1, if I remember correctly, was all about teamwork without any kind of point system and made for a lot of fun coop experiences. It was so long ago, but did it have a system to match you with other online players for coop? I actually prefer this rather than my own suggestions in regards to the point system, but I was (and still am) so very doubtful that the developers would do this since point progression systems are already established in this series and are such a norm in games nowadays--especially shooters. And even more so taking into account that shooters have gone the direction of fast-paced, constant and instant gratification, which usually mean being rewarded with points/exp with visual and audio indicators for securing a kill, so a point system is at the very least something the players probably expect from a modern FPS.

We also have the progression system to obtain skins. Their latest Q&A talked about the option to obtain cosmetics through grinding or buy them with real money. That would also be affected by removal of a point system.

I stand for my suggestions only if they ultimately want to keep a point system. Cause if we're playing to our egos, then it might as well push towards the mentality that team-oriented play is the major payoff for earning points.

Just a side note: I ran a strict no run-and-gun, no rushing, wait-for-everyone-before-capping, notify-firing-lane-crossing server in Insurgency 2, so regardless of the point system outcome, I'll be content with just the ability to run our own private servers for Sandstorm.

@thisisjames Agreed.

I would just say that gaining levels with XP points is not incompatible with having no points and leaderboard through an online coop game, though.

@thisisjames

Honestly its fine if they keep it the way it is. At the very least give us a way to turn off the point screen on private servers. That is all I ask. An easy way to turn it off and on; as well as the MVP. I say this because if the MVP still pops up we will still have idiots rushing and tk’ing ppl on cache’s, and really nothing will change as long as MVP pops up at the end despite the score board being removed.

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@max80 That would be something, but I fear it won't be enough. Private servers are not the most wide-spread and most played servers most of the time, so... Unless there is a strict admin to kick asshats...

@grumf

I dont know Sernix (18 player squad mod) was a hit and I started playing in it close to when it first started. It had 4-5 servers for public play in its peak, and I say private servers because at the very least they could meet the masses like us halfway by allowing us to do to the theater what they wont do themselves. Modding is probably where we will win this battle. Their public servers will likely not support this. When I say private I mean rented not necessarily password protected. Sernix is a prime example of how the theater can be completely altered and allowing us to easily turn off mvp and individual stats is really an easy win for us through private server controls.

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I really wish NWI would reply to this topic so we know it’s at least being considered.

I agree with a lot of what has been said here however I would not agree with removing individual point stats. If that was done it would remove a fundamental reason that many people play any multiplayer game regardless of game mode, if the competitive aspect is removed you risk losing a sizeable portion of your player base from that mode. As has been mentioned the solution I think is to incentivise team play by changing how points are awarded.
Making it more dangerous to be the first one at next objective is a possibility but then sometimes you have to move forward alone because everybody else isn't (sometimes just camping), and then there is the AI which often hangs around a taken objective and won't even let you resupply in peace! Forcing you to keep moving or else fall prey of the AI wall hack.
I often wonder if this game, fun though it is has been deliberately coded to be as frustrating as it can be. Everybody wants a challenge but is there any possibility we could leave out some of the frustrating jump scare s**t? I know that the devs are as they put it "putting the fear back into the genre" but be careful not to take out the "fun" while you're at it!

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@gprologitech

how can you agree with anything on this page and not agree with removing stats? And if removing stats removes the asshats who TK to get points, rush points to avoid fighting at all just for more points, then you know what? I am ok with losing those players as they bring nothing to the co-op table worth keeping.

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@gprologitech But don't you see the huge contradiction that lies between competition and cooperation ?
I played many older coop games that had no scoring system nor competition between teammates, and it was awesome. Everybody just came there to have fun, no one acted like children wanting to monopolize every bit of gameplay and fun for themselves.

I'm not saying every personnal stats should be removed from the game, only that it should be removed from the coop mode to see if, over time, some toxic or narcissistic behaviours would dissapear or at the very least become less frequent.

And I would really like to know what is so great about knowing how superior your are against bots. They're bots. Nobody cares about how quickly you can destroy them. Why do people want to show off that bad ?... I really don't get it. Competition and cooperation are like oil and water. Why would you want to mix them ? All you'll get are two separate things : players that would like to have a good time against AI and with other players, and people who only care about what other players will think about them and therefore try to be the strongest...

Because, in the end, let's be honest. This is not a matter of knowing how superior you are against bots. It's a matter of knowing how superior you are against your teammates. And this kind of individualistic way of thinking does not have anything to do in a coop scenario.

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@max80 said in Disable some information in the leaderboard in COOP:

@gprologitech

how can you agree with anything on this page and not agree with removing stats? And if removing stats removes the asshats who TK to get points, rush points to avoid fighting at all just for more points, then you know what? I am ok with losing those players as they bring nothing to the co-op table worth keeping.

I agree with incentivising teamwork via points (this has been mentioned on this page)
Rushing points does not equate to not fighting at all, rushing points is often very risky but maybe should be made more so.
I don't think NWI would be happy with losing players, do you?

@gprologitech

yeah actually it does. many people have the points on each map given memorized and during the fighting of one area they rush to the nearest point and sit waiting to begin capturing...then they do it to the next point and the next point and the next point bypassing any fighting at all. The bots are drawn to gunshots not someone silently moving from point to point bypassing 90% of combat. They can lose the trolls or we as a community lose interest in co-op mode for insurgency. I think they know which would hurt more. But you know what its fine. Because my main focus is going to be the private servers where Admins care about what happens on their server. I am simply raising awareness of a cancer spreading in the game.

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@max80 said in Disable some information in the leaderboard in COOP:

@gprologitech

yeah actually it does. many people have the points on each map given memorized and during the fighting of one area they rush to the nearest point and sit waiting to begin capturing...then they do it to the next point and the next point and the next point bypassing any fighting at all. The bots are drawn to gunshots not someone silently moving from point to point bypassing 90% of combat. They can lose the trolls or we as a community lose interest in co-op mode for insurgency. I think they know which would hurt more. But you know what its fine. Because my main focus is going to be the private servers where Admins care about what happens on their server. I am simply raising awareness of a cancer spreading in the game.

I don't think I have experienced this behaviour, "during the fighting for one area" do you mean the point has not been capped? And people are rushing to the next one? Through the 'restricted zone'?

From what I remember this game mode in ins2 suffered exactly the same issues. It seemed like every single person desperate to be top. And it always seemed to be a very popular coop mode. I never understood why. Working as a team and the clutch to bring team mates back was always more appealing to me.

@max80 That's exactly that. I've strated enjoying local play more and more. The only reason I keep playing coop is for the credits I have to get to customize my character. Without that, I'd be playing on local almost exclusively. I guess you have to play with friends if you want a good experience...

I was in a game today, and someone on the team had to say "Take it easy, guys, it's not a race". One or two guys were rushing like crazy, forcing every team member to run behind them. These people force their suicidal pace on the whole team because they want to be the MVP. It's either that, or you play more slowly but never get a chance to complete an objective or kill an enemy for the whole game... Yay.

No MVP and no ranking would deter players to act in such an immature manner. Hence why this thread was created.

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@gprologitech NEAT! moving on now. You are making it very clear that everything we discuss that we dislike about what people do during co-op that is game breaking you seem to enjoy and probably do. I am done talking to you. Thank you for your time and have a nice day,

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