Gunships and Minigun supports are bad and we should feel bad.

The design of the helicopter supports in this game I feel are quite poor. The amount of skill required to use one effectively is zero, and the overall feeling of the player who called it in is that they didn't do much. This is pretty annoying considering how devastating and they can be to the insurgent side, and very frustrating when you get spawn killed by one. I feel that helicopter supports wouldn't be so bad if they were at least fun to use for the side calling them in, but they arent. About the only enjoyment I get out of them being around is seeing them crash when they get shot down in coop play.
TLDR; They are fun for no one and should be out of versus play.
(Also wouldn't bother me to see supports cut altogether, but thats for another time)

I agree with the wholesale removal of fire support, but I think that's unlikely since its inclusion is one of the selling points of this game. All I'd ask for is the option in the match preferences menu to only be matched into games with fire support disabled (except maybe smoke mortars).

last edited by cyoce

I argued the same point as well. And I fully agree. It takes no effort for the Sec team for what is devastating for Ins team and to take it out, one has to be under it effectively with an RPG and expose themselves, or the whole team needs to expose themselves by firing at it. All the Sec team has to do for Chem mortars is put on a mask, or avoid it, or can just run away from a drone. The only gamemode that supports it is coop checkpoint at the moment I think.

I have to say that I was disappointed to see that this mechanic was included in Sandstorm.

I think it's unfair that the most powerful support options which are the gunship and minigun are only available to the security side.

I know I have no friends in this thread, but perhaps we could come up with alternatives together? (due to the unlikelyness of supports ever being removed). Can anyone think up a support option that might give the insurgents the same level of area denial, making the Security fear to go outside for more than a few seconds?

This has been brought up before, and the general consensus was that they A ) need to be removed or B ) the insurgents need some sort of equivalent, active area-denial support.

Gas is too easy to bypass and doesn't cover a large enough area (or even go indoors through large open doors and windows for some reason) so some sort of larger gas attack wouldn't cut it. Even with the heavier point restrictions, masks are easy to take along.

I know its against the geneva convention, but perhaps a large-area, sustained phosphorous mortar bombardment? (or we could just have it be fire and avoid the controversy) If the fire that covers a LARGE area and lasts for 20 seconds that's as long as the gunship stays. I think the visuals of entire swaths of land being on fire would also be pretty cool.

Another idea was that a support option could be to call in dozens of higher altitude spotter drones that stay in the area for 30 seconds, and have any enemies spotted by the drones have a mortar (smaller....grenade sized explosions) called in on their position that lands within just a few seconds. This is more of an "active" denial like the choppers are so it could be what we're looking for.

I also think the IED drones need a full re-work...to be piloted by the Observer. They would be so much more SCARY and lethal if piloted by an actual player, instead of by that dumb AI

last edited by AMURKA

@amurka said in Gunships and Minigun supports are bad and we should feel bad.:

If the fire that covers a LARGE area and lasts for 20 seconds that's as long as the gunship stays. I think the visuals of entire swaths of land being on fire would also be pretty cool.

Another idea was that a support option could be to call in dozens of higher altitude spotter drones that stay in the area for 30 seconds, and have any enemies spotted by the drones have a mortar (smaller....grenade sized explosions) called in on their position that lands within just a few seconds. This is more of an "active" denial like the choppers are so it could be what we're looking for.

I also think the IED drones need a full re-work...to be piloted by the Observer. They would be so much more SCARY and lethal if piloted by an actual player, instead of by that dumb AI

Agree Agree Agree! This sounds perfect tbh.

I also think that the time from being called in to happening needs a little shortening, in coop today I gave up entirely as it took ages for the strike to happen.

The point of a combat simulator is to provide nonstop concerns.

I would also really love to see the A10's fly lower during strike pass then bank and peal off after the Brrrrrrrrrrrrrrrt. The in-game pass is close to on par with real-world altitudes. However, for a more visual and dramatic effect in game, it would be nice to see them closer up. Not so much buzzing the roof tops, but 100-150 feet above deck would look really nice.

Adding a louder tell-tell "whine" of those large gorgeous turbo-fans as well would be the finishing touch (oncoming, the pass, and with Doppler effect while pealing off into the distance).

Watch the lower passes for an example:

Youtube Video

Youtube Video – [00:06..]

Youtube Video

@amurka I think an active denial like the minigun or the gunship is something that takes experience away from the players. It is annoying to deal with, I don't feel intense or out witted when I get shot by it, just annoyance. If I call upon it, it was satisfying at first when you get 9 kills, but when you realise that means little, it doesn't really. Perhaps in a coop mode, or a PvP game mode that involves more time and more waves. But for push and skirmish, I just find that it doesn't fit. I mean, you can take the WP idea, but it is indiscriminate like other artillery so it does not balance, and the active drone will be somewhat of an equivalent (if it is super fast so that it is impossible to dodge) but also that takes out the fun as well, like the gunship does. I think the minigun isn't too bad, as long as it is not super accurate, but the gunship is a poison to this game. I had a sec guy right next to me while I ran into cover, I got destroyed by the gunship while engaging, where he didn't even get a scratch despite being less than 3 m from where I got shot.

@amurka For an alternative, I think I am going outside the box a little bit, but something which still utilities their assets. When the minigun heli is called, then it will spray it's guns as usual to the marked location, but it will land and re-enforce the location (spawn) closer to the objective. It will make the heli much faster like in real life, but it's primary goal is to deliver troops, so it is not much of a denial weapon. Same for Ins side, but with a 5 ton truck (the one you ride at the start of coop) with a mounted MG, or drone over. But it can be used more frequent with less cooldown than the heli since it is ground based, and easy target.

Or, they could just get a simple AA going to take the heli down easily, either it be a turret AA gun, shoulder mounted equipment (like a stinger), or a fire-support call in.

I like the helicopters in PUSH mode. I've seen them used effectively. If Insurgents want to fire rockets at the objective and not the heli that's a fine time to use it. Also on final waves it can clean up a match really fast. The fact they can get shot down so fast is a good thing. It shouldn't be a god mode call in and calls in faster then artillery.

The minigun and gunship can be countered with a well placed rpg7/liberated at4 shot.

Chemical mortars and rocket barrages require zero skill to use, none of the support options require support because guess what, they're support options.

All of the support options can do with tweaking, but by no means should any be removed because some people can't utilise cover in the forms of a building or a construction pipe.

All of my standard loadouts are equipped with gas masks, my elite demo builds all incorporate a rpg or panzer, I expect the demo to counter air support but if they can't or are unable to I do the usual, wait in shelter for the heli to pass. It would be nice if we could target the main rotor/tail rotor and unleash a hail of lead to try and damage the vehicle and make it unstable/lead to crashing.

I do however think that the support options should be rebalanced; mortars more plentiful and faster to call in and arrive on target, security need tear gas mortars to rival the chemical mortars. More hardcore arial denial like rocket barrage, bomber drone, minigun chopper, and gunship should be limited in the sense that to call them in you either need a full team or quite a few members, or the commmander should need a certain amount of objectives/points/kills or even to need both obs near-by as to prevent early use and to make those options need a skilled commander to use.

I prefer chemical mortars and explosive mortars over the more hardcore options as I feel they last longer and effect a wider area.

last edited by Depleted

@depleted I gotta ask. Why do you ever use Panzer when you only get one instead of 2-3 to fire...and having a larger explosive head doesn't mean anything in this game since one RPG kills literally any vehicle already anyway? Is there some function or feature of the Panzer I'm just misunderstanding?

@amurka said in Gunships and Minigun supports are bad and we should feel bad.:

I know I have no friends in this thread, but perhaps we could come up with alternatives together? (due to the unlikelyness of supports ever being removed). Can anyone think up a support option that might give the insurgents the same level of area denial, making the Security fear to go outside for more than a few seconds?

But you do have friends here 🙂

I think it's unfair that the most powerful support options which are the gunship and minigun are only available to the security side.

@Qarisma from what I understand, this game represents "asymmetrical warfare", so it should be a bit unfair here and there, but I agree that two helicopters vs no helicopters is a bit too much.

So, huge swarm of IED-drones like 10-20 of them - good alternative. Its quite scary I think. Buzz of doom. And it still can be countered by enemy team.

I also think the IED drones need a full re-work...to be piloted by the Observer. They would be so much more SCARY and lethal if piloted by an actual player, instead of by that dumb AI

Amen to that. Or to add a IED drone to a demolition class Insurgent. That would be cool.

last edited by Jesus Man

@jesus-man Excellent ideas. If we are going to be playing asymmetric warfare, I think that more than just the weapon choices and support options should vary. There should be roles unique to each side, more than just a name swap. Pilotable IED drones is a great idea.

@amurka said in Gunships and Minigun supports are bad and we should feel bad.:

@depleted I gotta ask. Why do you ever use Panzer when you only get one instead of 2-3 to fire...and having a larger explosive head doesn't mean anything in this game since one RPG kills literally any vehicle already anyway? Is there some function or feature of the Panzer I'm just misunderstanding?

Because it has a large explosive radius and is the perfect tool to punish fools who clump together and break the first rule of military training - spacing.

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