Add Semi-Auto Shotguns into INS:S (Suggestion)

In a recent past suggestion, I wanted the two shotguns to be more different from each other than what they are right now. But one guy who commented mentioned if the game could add in Combat Shotguns; I'm not too much into the idea, but this can be an opprotunity to change up the weaponry for INS:S farther than what NWI has does before.

I have some ideas on what Combat Shotguns can be implemented in INS:S. Nothing too drastic that could be overpowered in INS:S:

Security:
SPAS-12 (Famous Combat Shotgun in popular media/video games that can do Pump or Semi-Auto firemodes)
SPAS-15 (Lesser-known Combat Shotgun that is like the SPAS-12, but can be loaded with a Magazine)
M-1014 (Standard Combat Shotgun for the U.S. Armed Forces)
M-1208 (M-1212/M-1216) (Unique gun mechanism to twist magazine to load more shells)
STRIKER (South African Combat Shotgun. High capacity with the built-in drum mag. Long time to reload though)

Insurgent:
Any DOUBLE-BARREL SHOTGUN (IMO, they are technically Semi-Auto. They can have a special ability to fire both shells at the same time for a powerful attack, but with higher recoil and less accuracy)
MTS-255 (Russian Semi-Auto shotgun with a revolving cylinder magazine like a revolver. Can have the modification of a fast shell loader like revolver speed loaders)
SAIGA-12 (Russian Combat Shotgun loaded with magazines. Can also go Full-Auto and have a lot of opprotunities to modify, but only loaded with small-capacity magazines)
VEPR-12 (Essentially like the SAIGA-12, but maybe easier to apply with name licensing?)

last edited by BlueMouse

@bluemouse said in Add Semi-Auto Shotguns into INS:S (Suggestion):

M-1014 (Standard Combat Shotgun for the U.S. Armed Forces)

Yes please.

@bluemouse Not gonna lie... the MTS 255 is pretty freakin' badass looking.

Though, I don't know how open NWI is to the idea of semi-auto shotguns. They pretty much said no to them in INS:Source because they felt they'd be overpowered.

EDIT: Not sold on the idea of a SPAS-12 or SPAS-15, though. Those guns really aren't that commonly used (in fact I believe only a handful of police precincts still use them). Also, I believe the Striker is just a rubbish shotgun all around, though I could be confusing it for a different gun.

last edited by Quadsword

Definitely the M1014 (aka. Benelli m4 super 90) and some kind of double barrel for the Insurgents. What would be the supply cost? How would you fire both at the same time as the player? It surely can't be left mouse equals left barrel and right mouse equals right barrel, then you couldn't ADS.

The 'Duplex' method could be the solution. Duplex is press left mouse (then hold it) to shoot one barrel but as soon as you lift up the left mouse it will shoot the other barrel.

With duplex, you can shoot once with a press and hold left click, then scan or re-align for target #2 then simply let go for a quick boom boom double kill.

If you wanted to only shoot one barrel, while holding left mouse you'd press reload and your character will replace the round fired and then you can let go of left mouse.

Or would the method just be one full left click (down and release) equals just one shot fired? If so then you can't have the two at once feature.

If you know about the game war-frame, they use the duplex method for their DB shotguns.

@quadsword said in Add Semi-Auto Shotguns into INS:S (Suggestion):

EDIT: Not sold on the idea of a SPAS-12 or SPAS-15, though. Those guns really aren't that commonly used (in fact I believe only a handful of police precincts still use them).

The SPAS-12 is still fairly common, though Franchi discontinued it in 2000. It's used by the Italian military and police, a few special forces units, and I think there's still a few kicking around in police units stateside - though Benelli has really taken over that market.

I wouldn't think semi-auto shotguns would be overpowered. They've still got a slow rate of fire, are slow to reload, have a small magazine size, and perform poorly against armor. That should be plenty of negatives to allow for balance.

@jarple I got another idea on how the Double-Barrel should be handled.

The Double-Barrel does not have the ability to ADS, but hip-firing is the most accurate compared with the rest of the weapons. The left and right mouse buttons shoot the corresponding barrel. I believe this method is from the Metro Redux games for the Duplet shotgun and CODMW2 for the Ranger shotgun.

The Duplex method seems a bit confusing since a lot of people have played AAA FPS games where one click or one press equals one bullet fired. I would be confused myself since I usually click up and down with the shotguns.

I have played Warframe before, but I never touched their Double-Barrel shotgun since I rather go with assault rifles.

@quadsword The SPAS-12 is an iconic shotgun based on Valve's Half-Life series and the under-barrel shotgun attachment from the Pulse Rifle from the Aliens series. I believe a lot of people will recognize the weapon's appearance.

The Striker, or the "Street Sweeper" developed by Armsel, is an interesting weapons to me personally. The magazine is built into the gun, and the magazine behaves like a revolving cylinder. To load is like any other shotgun loaded by hand, but there's a gimmick before loading another round like a wind-up toy. In realistic situations, the Striker is only good with its high capacity used only once since reload is too long. Personally a cool look, but not too practical. South African weapons are interesting to see.

I argue that NWI is doing a lot of different things for INS:S compared with what they did before with their past games, so maybe they'll be open-minded about this suggestion; it's a suggestion, so no problems if they never applied Combat Shotguns.

@maa_bunny I guess so. Just slap in high recoil, super-low range, lower damage than Pump-Action Shotguns, and hand loading-only and that should do it.

Hopefully any NWI developer sees this if this suggestion would be considered or shot down. Either way, whatever works.

Honestly, an autoshotgun would be pretty overpowered but theres ways to counteract this. Someone said "its not very effective against armor" but really that isnt true, shotguns are pretty much as powerful as the round you put in them, this is why flechettes are such an issue right now. Theyve got almost the range bennefits of a slug, better armor piercing abilities than a slug and a spread, even if tight of other shotgun rounds.

I can see an autoshotgun with flechettes being one of the strongest weapons in the game, so the first thing that comes to mind is to make it one of the most expensive weapons in the game. The next is to limit the classes that can use it, I dont think breacher should be able to use it, id go so far as to make it a commander only weapon. You also cant make the recoil too high next to a pump shotgun since they essentially do the same thing, if anything they should have about the same recoil as a pump shotgun, the only difference is you dont have the pump time to compensate for the reload unless youre willing to sit and wait for the shot to come back down. It would also be silly to have a slower reload to a pump shotgun, the list goes on and on. Essentially theyre just shotguns without the need to pump, making them weaker in other areas in comparison to a pump shotgun would be a bit unrealistic even if its for the good of balance, but I really think you can balance the gun without making it weaker with some of the suggestions ive put above.

@ziggylata said in Add Semi-Auto Shotguns into INS:S (Suggestion):

Someone said "its not very effective against armor" but really that isnt true, shotguns are pretty much as powerful as the round you put in them, this is why flechettes are such an issue right now.

Shotguns, simply, are not as powerful as rifles. The chambers and barrels are not designed to handle the same level of pressure as a rifle barrel, which significantly reduces the ability to launch high velocity projectiles. Both 12-gauge 00 buckshot and slugs are defeated by armor rated for pistol rounds - the same armor is easily defeated by rifle projectiles. I don't have much info on flechette rounds out of a shotgun, since they're not very popular in the real world, but I don't imagine changing the shape of what's still essentially buckshot is going to dramatically improve its penetration ability.

@maa_bunny said in Add Semi-Auto Shotguns into INS:S (Suggestion):

@ziggylata said in Add Semi-Auto Shotguns into INS:S (Suggestion):

Someone said "its not very effective against armor" but really that isnt true, shotguns are pretty much as powerful as the round you put in them, this is why flechettes are such an issue right now.

Shotguns, simply, are not as powerful as rifles. The chambers and barrels are not designed to handle the same level of pressure as a rifle barrel, which significantly reduces the ability to launch high velocity projectiles. Both 12-gauge 00 buckshot and slugs are defeated by armor rated for pistol rounds - the same armor is easily defeated by rifle projectiles. I don't have much info on flechette rounds out of a shotgun, since they're not very popular in the real world, but I don't imagine changing the shape of what's still essentially buckshot is going to dramatically improve its penetration ability.

You can just like, shoot one ingame you know.

I'm not too keen on semi auto and full auto shotguns being in the game, but an Insurgent double barrel shotgun would be so cool. You could have an attachment where the barrel is sawn-off.

@maa_bunny I mean, magnum buckshot is (iirc) made up of nine .32 ACP bullets. That shit would compromise armor pretty fast, I'd think, plus there's a good chance some of those pellets won't hit your torso and thus negate the armor entirely.

Slugs are stopped by armor, but you're still getting fucked up. Really bad.

@maa_bunny said in Add Semi-Auto Shotguns into INS:S (Suggestion):I don't have much info on flechette rounds out of a shotgun, since they're not very popular in the real world, but I don't imagine changing the shape of what's still essentially buckshot is going to dramatically improve its penetration ability.

facepalms fifty times

Flechette is NOT buckshot. Not even remotely close. You even state yourself that you don't know about flechette rounds so your assumption here has no basis whatsoever.

Flechette rounds are basically what happens if you decide to turn a crossbow into a shotgun. It's effective against armor because it's basically firing crossbow bolts (albeit much smaller, like darts) which is why it's so effective against body armor.

@marksmanmax said in Add Semi-Auto Shotguns into INS:S (Suggestion):

I mean, magnum buckshot is (iirc) made up of nine .32 ACP bullets. That shit would compromise armor pretty fast, I'd think, plus there's a good chance some of those pellets won't hit your torso and thus negate the armor entirely.

No. Buckshot is made up of lead or steel balls. They're not directional and do not have jackets. They are not bullets.

Shot spread out of military shotguns tends to be within the size of an average torso at most normal engagement distances, so impact on limbs will really come down to aim and a bit of chance.

Slugs are stopped by armor, but you're still getting fucked up. Really bad.

If it hits soft armor, yes, absolutely. If it hits a hard armor plate, not so much.

facepalms fifty times

Flechette is NOT buckshot. Not even remotely close. You even state yourself that you don't know about flechette rounds so your assumption here has no basis whatsoever.

Shape is only one part of penetration performance, my comparison to buckshot was in relation to weight and velocity - as I stated. The Sabot Designs 12-gauge flechette round fires 19 flechettes out of a 2 3/4" shot shell. Per the manufacturers specs each flechette is an 8 grain projectile with a roughly 1925 FPS muzzle velocity. For comparison 5.56mm M-825 out of an M-4 rifle is a 62 grain projectile with a muzzle velocity of 2700 FPS. Penetration performance isn't going to even be close.

@maa_bunny said in Add Semi-Auto Shotguns into INS:S (Suggestion):

@marksmanmax said in Add Semi-Auto Shotguns into INS:S (Suggestion):

I mean, magnum buckshot is (iirc) made up of nine .32 ACP bullets. That shit would compromise armor pretty fast, I'd think, plus there's a good chance some of those pellets won't hit your torso and thus negate the armor entirely.

No. Buckshot is made up of lead or steel balls. They're not directional and do not have jackets. They are not bullets.

I did say iirc cause I wasn't sure. I think it's .32 caliber but it's not .32 cal bullets, per se.

@maa_bunny said in Add Semi-Auto Shotguns into INS:S (Suggestion):Per the manufacturers specs each flechette is an 8 grain projectile with a roughly 1925 FPS muzzle velocity. For comparison 5.56mm M-825 out of an M-4 rifle is a 62 grain projectile with a muzzle velocity of 2700 FPS. Penetration performance isn't going to even be close.

You do realize though those flechettes are much smaller in diameter, right? Combine how thin the projectile is with the speed and you've got a cartridge with as much penetration as a 5.56 at least IMO. Flechette diameter is 1.5 mm compared to 5.56 mm.

last edited by MarksmanMax

@slazenger Yeah, Double-Barrel shotguns are one of the most utilitarian firearms in the world. Should be common enough for any irregular armed force to have.

Also with attachments, shouldn't be that many options. Sawn-Off Barrel and Longer Barrel can be one of them.

@l1ttel_y Good idea! From INS Modern Infantry Combat, right?

@marksmanmax said in Add Semi-Auto Shotguns into INS:S (Suggestion):

You do realize though those flechettes are much smaller in diameter, right? Combine how thin the projectile is with the speed and you've got a cartridge with as much penetration as a 5.56 at least IMO. Flechette diameter is 1.5 mm compared to 5.56 mm.

Smaller diameter certainly helps, but at 1/8 the weight and roughly 2/3 the velocity (or lower) the penetration capability just isn't there. If you believe a flechette can match 5.56mm for penetrating power and damage you have a vivid imagination. There's a reason why no military has developed a .06 caliber rifle to defeat body armor.

A simple muzzle energy calculation shows a single flechette leaves the barrel with a paltry 66 ft. lbs. of energy - less than .22LR at 135 ft. lbs. and way less than 5.56mm M-825 at 2700 FPS which has 1,004 ft. lbs. Muzzle energy isn't a strong indicator of terminal performance, but at a measly 6% of the energy of 5.56mm it is another strike against a flechette.

Evidence I can find of people actually trying this says the same thing. 12 gauge flechette rounds either fail or struggle to penetrate light body armor:

Youtube Video

Youtube Video

Youtube Video

(This one is a bit weird, because the narrator implies flechettes penetrate soft armor well, yet the video clearly shows them failing to fully penetrate a piece of cardboard behind the armor. Painful, but certainly not lethal, in line with what the other videos show.)

last edited by MAA_Bunny

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