Add Semi-Auto Shotguns into INS:S (Suggestion)

@maa_bunny said in Add Semi-Auto Shotguns into INS:S (Suggestion):

@marksmanmax said in Add Semi-Auto Shotguns into INS:S (Suggestion):

You do realize though those flechettes are much smaller in diameter, right? Combine how thin the projectile is with the speed and you've got a cartridge with as much penetration as a 5.56 at least IMO. Flechette diameter is 1.5 mm compared to 5.56 mm.

Smaller diameter certainly helps, but at 1/8 the weight and roughly 2/3 the velocity (or lower) the penetration capability just isn't there. If you believe a flechette can match 5.56mm for penetrating power and damage you have a vivid imagination. There's a reason why no military has developed a .06 caliber rifle to defeat body armor.

A simple muzzle energy calculation shows a single flechette leaves the barrel with a paltry 66 ft. lbs. of energy - less than .22LR at 135 ft. lbs. and way less than 5.56mm M-825 at 2700 FPS which has 1,004 ft. lbs. Muzzle energy isn't a strong indicator of terminal performance, but at a measly 6% of the energy of 5.56mm it is another strike against a flechette.

Evidence I can find of people actually trying this says the same thing. 12 gauge flechette rounds either fail or struggle to penetrate light body armor:

Youtube Video

Youtube Video

Youtube Video

(This one is a bit weird, because the narrator implies flechettes penetrate soft armor well, yet the video clearly shows them failing to fully penetrate a piece of cardboard behind the armor. Painful, but certainly not lethal, in line with what the other videos show.)

Ill be fair here, flechettes are quite weird but theyre also very particular. The first video shows him clearly unable to actually load the things in properly and then seeing it not work properly as a result. I feel flechettes are very particular in how they must be shot to achieve maximum performance and efficency, loading in 30 flechettes into a shell and half of them backwards isnt the way to shoot them.

@ziggylata said in Add Semi-Auto Shotguns into INS:S (Suggestion):

I feel flechettes are very particular in how they must be shot to achieve maximum performance and efficency, loading in 30 flechettes into a shell and half of them backwards isnt the way to shoot them.

Yah, I thought that was weird too, but many of the commercial 12 gauge flechette rounds I've found are loaded the same way. The Sabot Designs rounds, who's specs I've been quoting, specifically state that they don't load any flechettes backwards in the shell. Their ballistic gell tests look a lot better, but despite an entire website dedicated to espousing the advantages of flechette ammo in shotguns they don't seem to ever mention armor penetration.

please for the love of god add a double barrel, under-over none of this side by side BS.

Why does everybody say shotguns are overpower, in old insurgency they were mostly one-shot "OMFG SO FUCKING OP" but so were most fully automatic rifles! so a gun that is One shot and basically useless at more at 10m had to go up against full auto one shot killing machines. Hopefully this game is going the same direction in lethality of rifles because they are cock atm, but assuming they do why is it so scary to have a semi-auto shotgun? they are just like rifles but they are bad at long ranges.

Don't know about the M1208/12/16 and the SPAS-15, as it's a bit too exotic for standard armed security forces, and the Striker is definitely a really bad idea considering how shitty and useless that weapon is.

I however am all for the double-barrel shotgun for the insurgents. It's common and easy to get, reliable, simple, inexpensive, efficient. And god, does it looks good as well.

MTS-255 feels way too exotic for insurgent forces.

Everything else sounds really good imo.

Plus, the double-barrel shotgun would be easy to balance. Only 2 shots before reload, no iron sights...
They should also get rid of flechettes, which are not a thing in the military since it's only a gimmick that doesn't work. Buckshot would be weak against armor, while slugs would be really effective. They need to be rebalanced anyway, 'cause shotties are a bit useless atm. Sure, they are powerful, but they have a slow rate of fire, very few shots before reloading, and reloading takes ages. A G3 is basically the same, but more accurate and efficient at long range.

last edited by Grumf

Benelli M4 for security would be awesome. 6 supply point cost or so would balance it just fine.
Give the insurgents a double barrel, slightly faster fire rate, much quicker reload and general rpm but without the additional followup shots on tap.

Would be great.

I think there is a m26 underbarrel shotgun model in the file, also a standalone version, we will see.

@grumf The use of flechette rounds for any firearm is actually "illegal" in warfare, but the Security faction can do whatever they want since they are a private military company. Government-owned militaries can't.

I agree with you though with taking out flechette rounds. Flechette shell rounds makes the shotgun like a cowboy repeater, just keep shooting at far ranges at a too satisfying rate.

@whitby I hope that NWI gives Combat shotguns a try.

I recall they had Combat Shotguns back with their INS Modern Infantry Combat Source Mod game, both the M-1014 and the Semi-Auto version of the TOZ shotgun. If those two weapons worked before, they should be able to add in Combat Shotguns. It's only a couple of weapons.

The supply cost should be high enough that pairing with heavy armor is near impossible without sacrificing a lot of opprotunities of having gun modifications, sidearms, and equipment.

@ctbear1996 The M-26 is essentially still a Pump Action shotgun, but with a magazine. Not really anything different in terms of fire modes. I'm not too excited to see the M-26 so much.

@grumf Yeah, I guess both the M-1208 and the SPAS-15 is too rare and unpopular to arm a numerious amount of Security mercenaries. The Striker/Streetsweeper is a good choice in terms of balancing a Combat Shotgun in an FPS in my opinion, but I guess it won't be good in all factors of game and gunplay.

I hope they add a Double-Barrel shotgun. The gun model doesn't even have to look that fancy and intricate. Just have an old, cracked wood stock (with or without a wooden stock) and two metal barrels with a break-open hinge. Balancing should be easy enough. Doesn't even have to be too original in terms of gunplay.

@zucchini The shotguns with Flechette rounds are overpowered. Can hit people at a significant distance. The rest of the ammo types, Buckshot and Slug, are fine enough.

@bluemouse The problem of the Striker is that it is a really malfunctioning, unreliable and atrociously designed weapon in real life. Any soldier would prefer having a single-shot shotgun rather than a Striker. Adding the weapon in the game would destroy all its credibility. There's a reason why no one uses this gun, and also a reason why it's only featured in films or video-games that do not care about only looking "cool" and being arcadey.