TTK needs a kick up the @#$*

@slazenger said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

@jenshii

"I want the game to become easier"

Killing in 1 shot does not make the game easier. You are conveniently forgetting that it also applies to the enemy too, who can kill you in 1 shot. That doesn't make the game easy, it makes it more of a challenge if anything.

Well, the fact that enemy can kill me in one shot doesn't make the game more challenging, because I can also kill them in 1 too.

One-shot-kills make the game point-n-click and dumbs down game mechanics and requires less different skill areas and that's the reason it makes the game easier. I've discussed this in another thread few weeks back. I can copypasta the post again if you want.

Why didn't Zucchini just post a comment in any of the EXISTING TTK threads? Why did he need to make a new one? Did we really need ANOTHER one of these TTK threads where all the same old arguments are going to just be repeated over and over?

Mods, can we just cram every single TTK thread into one at this point? The arguments are all the same and the only thing that is different is what over-the-top title the poster came up with for it.

TBH at this point can we just have an entire section of the forums be dedicated to TTK discussion. That way, people that are sick of hearing people whine about "OMG TTK!" not being EXACTLY to their specifications can filter it? There's like a new one of these garbage TTK threads every other day.

last edited by AMURKA

@amurka The forum is here to be used, so we use it.

Developers should remember what made Insurgency 2014 great but Developers should add new features.

If you take away fast TTK from Insurgency , what will make this game different from other Military Shooters ?
( Call of Duty , Tom Clancy's , Battlefield , Counter Strike , and etc. )

Insurgency 2014 was very unique because of the fast TTK.

A Military Shooter without uniqueness cannot survive because there are so many other competitors.

Sandstorm should keep the unique TTK from the previous title but Sandstorm should add new features such as =

  • Air support
  • Beginner friendly co-op
  • Competitive multiplayer for veterans
  • Drivable vehicles
  • Expansive maps
  • Fascinating character customization
  • Genuinely authentic audio design

@jensiii said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

@whitby you claim that aim doesn't currently matter because you need more than one shot to kill, and still we know that aim always matters more when you need more than 1 shot to kill. We know this because it discussed before on the forum, but back then people were crying about "not wanting the aim to matter that much" and therefore wanted one shot kills. Contradiction anyone?!

If you are right, why do you have to tell lies about what I wrote and attempt to misrepresent my argument instead of actually challenging the points made?

I made no claim that "aim doesn't currently matter". I stated: "there's barely even an advantage to properly aiming before you pull the trigger since you're going to have to manage recoil on the super soaker regardless." I'm defining aiming as putting the crosshair on the target and firing. I'm defining recoil management as holding MOUSE1 and compensating for the directions in which the rifle jumps as you offload 2/3rds of a magazine onto the humanoid spec in the distance in order to make him fall down.

You refer to the previous conversation in which I made this distinction, resulting in my post being thumbed high above the surrounding posts in the discussion. I made the same aim/vs management argument here. There was no credible argument made against it there much like you've sidestepped the topic here too.

"we know that aim always matters more when you need more than 1 shot to kill" do we? We're all in agreement on this challenged point with open fallacies... What a crock of shit.

Who has said the aim shouldn't matter? Are you taking hallucinogens and seeing things which haven't been written or argued? You've accused me of a contradiction, yet instead of juxtaposing the conflicting points I've supposedly made you've fabricated nonsense.

One of you High-TTK advocates, explain it to me. Why do you want a game of recoil management like the other 5,000 shooters instead of a high lethality, punishing, rewarding game like Ins2014 or DoI? Then explain to me why you're here, on this forum, playing the successor to those titles. There's a fucking contradiction for you gentlemen.

So CSS is a refinement to CS 1.6 ...and CSGO is a refinement to CSS, but INS:S isn't a refinement to INS2?

Stop making me laugh.

All 3 CS games play totally different. If you think otherwise, you are delusional or simply have no clue. Refinement....haha.

I like how people try to defend a game-mechanic that was born out of bad game-design and wasn't even intentional. AP-Ammo-Meta, in case you are wondering. They changed the meta with INS:S. That's what good game-devs do btw. Sorry for the reality check.

Also: stop saying "ins2 vets dislike the higher TTK" as if that's a fact. Many vets i've met in discord, ingame or even here don't mind the slightly higher TTK at all. In the end: who cares about ins2 vets? No one. Game didn't even get a 5k player peak, despite being literally free. Who cares. Really.

Stop being so entitled and help NWI to make a better game than ins2 was.

1-shot-kills. What kinda low skilled casual community is this?! Holy christ. "Oh no! I need to hit 2 shots to kill someone now! Literally unplayable!".

And as I said on page 1, it's never beyond "get good"

@whitby said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

One of you High-TTK advocates, explain it to me. Why do you want a game of recoil management like the other 5,000 shooters instead of a high lethality, punishing, rewarding game like Ins2014 or DoI?

  1. A higher TTK isn't less punishing to positional mistakes made by the guy moving. If both players have equal aiming skills, the one with better positioning wins.
  2. A lower TTK is LESS punishing for campers. Positioning of the camper means less, bad aim means less. Less space for punishment of the camper. Lower skill ceiling. Quite easy to understand. In case you need an explanation for this:

with a low TTK it doesn't matter if the camper has a good position or a bad one. His enemy has no time to react to a bad position. The average human reaction time+seeing your enemy+moving your mouse all together takes far longer than the current TTK. There's literally no space for a reaction and that's based on low-effort-mechanics and not stuff that takes skill. If people in here want low-effort mechanics, that's fair, but holy hell don't act like a low TTK requires a higher skill or anything. It doesn't. INS:S is already really low on the skill-ceiling graph and you want to make it even lower. Epic.

  1. "rewarding" is subjective. I don't find a high reward for bad aim and excessive camping good game-design.
  2. What do you describe as "high lethality"? Fast kills? CS has high lethality. It's called head-shots. You know, the mechanic that actually requires skill and is risk-reward based when it comes to aiming.

Then explain to me why you're here, on this forum, playing the successor to those titles. There's a fucking contradiction for you gentlemen.

A successor usually tries to improve upon his predecessor. Or are you saying I shouldn't be playing Sandstorm, because some people want it to be a carbon-copy of ins2? Clearly the devs don't want it to be a carbon-copy. Maybe you are in the wrong place then?

I want this game to be a good, competitive FPS and not a carbon-copy of anything. Nothing contradicting about that.

@slazenger yeah, gj disregarding everything I've said in other TTK threads. Really good job. Low effort forum posting and low effort game mechanics. I see.

last edited by Benz

@benz said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

  1. A higher TTK isn't less punishing to positional mistakes made by the guy moving. If both players have equal aiming skills, the one with better positioning wins.

Let's start with zeroing in on this.

High TTK, a person runs across a street which is the centrepoint of an active gunfight. In doing so, he catches a bullet from a machinegun and falls to his death, immediately. He gets punished.

Low TTK, a person runs across the street which is the centrepoint of an active gunfight. In doing so, he catches a bullet from a machinegun and carries on running. Then he catches another and carries on running, Then he decides he'd rather be back where he started so he runs back across the street, catching a third bullet in the process. He was not punished for his bad positioning. He's still alive, while sucking his thumb in his bedroom with his Call of Duty poster on the wall, showing mummy the graphics.

Your argument of aim is flawed as I've repeatedly explained and not one high TTK advocate has even attempted to address. To land the multiple required hits on the target to bring him down, you have to manage the recoil of that automatic fire and hold the machine gun on that moving target as he takes his leisurely stroll enjoying the scenery in the middle of the gunfight. This isn't a matter of aim. It's a matter of recoil management.

last edited by Whitby

@whitby said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

@benz said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

  1. A higher TTK isn't less punishing to positional mistakes made by the guy moving. If both players have equal aiming skills, the one with better positioning wins.

Let's start with zeroing in on this.

High TTK, a person runs across a street which is the centrepoint of an active gunfight. In doing so, he catches a bullet from a machinegun and falls to his death, immediately. He gets punished.

Low TTK, a person runs across the street which is the centrepoint of an active gunfight. In doing so, he catches a bullet from a machinegun and carries on running. Then he catches another and carries on running, Then he decides he'd rather be back where he started so he runs back across the street, catching a third bullet in the process. He was not punished for his bad positioning. He's still alive, while sucking his thumb in his bedroom with his Call of Duty poster on the wall, showing mummy the graphics.

You switched up low and high TTK there. Still:

GJ completely disregarding the current lack of tagging in this game, which is the whole reason for people running around like maniacs the whole time. Also: i play this game quite a lot and never had an issue taking someone down that runs in the open, unless i miss my shots. I don't have a problem with getting punished for missing my shots. You seem to have.

Your argument of aim is flawed as I've repeatedly explained and not one high TTK advocate has even attempted to address. To land the multiple required hits on the target to bring him down, you have to manage the recoil of that automatic fire and hold the machine gun on that moving target as he takes his leisurely stroll enjoying the scenery in the middle of the gunfight. This isn't a matter of aim. It's a matter of recoil management.

lold. Explain to me what's bad about having to hit multiple shots on a target in this scenario. You actually gotta have what you call "recoil management"? Sad. So...why is that a bad thing again? Needing to have another skill in the game? 😂

last edited by Benz

@benz wdym the game didn't even get a 5k player peak?

https://steamcharts.com/app/222880

theres been a time as well when insurgency wasn't free and reached over a 5k player peak.

get your facts straight.

the fuck do you mean insurgency2 vets don't matter? you do realize the vets matter because they're the players that actually made the previous game alive for 4 long years. A game that was seen as underdog with a messy and buggy launch with no chance of surviving in the crowded tactical genre of games on Steam. If veteran players didn't matter so much in your eyes, then I bet the sequel wouldn't even exist and you wouldn't be on this forum. Even I wouldn't be on this forum. The foundation of insurgency's fanbase all the way from day 1 when it was a mod has always supported the series even as a small tiny playerbase for so long that now the game is about to release on mainstream markets (i.e expanding to console) what do you mean vets don't matter? Hell you need fucking vets in games to ensure the quality of games as they are the driving force and the roots of what your game great and what expanded in popularity. They're the ones who spread attention to games.

I'm not saying to fundamentally rely on the opinions of vets because vets can be wrong especially when it comes to supporting the idea of outdated mechanics.

@derpydays said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

@benz wdym the game didn't even get a 5k player peak?

https://steamcharts.com/app/222880

theres been a time as well when insurgency wasn't free and reached over a 5k player peak.

get your facts straight.

GJ not looking at the data you provided yourself. Maybe..scroll down a bit? Look at the average peak players for the single months. Highest avg. peak players wasn't even 4k in a month. Get real. Christ.

( taking outliers as 'facts' ...ouch )

Edit, cuz i can't believe people are that delusional:

https://steamdb.info/app/222880/graphs/

Like, even after the game literally got f2p for the weekend and people got the game FOR FREE the avg. peak amount of players DIED DOWN to the same as before WITHIN DAYS. 0 player retention. Do you even realize what that means?!

last edited by Benz

@benz said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

@whitby said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

@benz said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

  1. A higher TTK isn't less punishing to positional mistakes made by the guy moving. If both players have equal aiming skills, the one with better positioning wins.

Let's start with zeroing in on this.

High TTK, a person runs across a street which is the centrepoint of an active gunfight. In doing so, he catches a bullet from a machinegun and falls to his death, immediately. He gets punished.

Low TTK, a person runs across the street which is the centrepoint of an active gunfight. In doing so, he catches a bullet from a machinegun and carries on running. Then he catches another and carries on running, Then he decides he'd rather be back where he started so he runs back across the street, catching a third bullet in the process. He was not punished for his bad positioning. He's still alive, while sucking his thumb in his bedroom with his Call of Duty poster on the wall, showing mummy the graphics.

You switched up low and high TTK there. Still:

GJ completely disregarding the current lack of tagging in this game, which is the whole reason for people running around like maniacs the whole time. Also: i play this game quite a lot and never had an issue taking someone down that runs in the open, unless i miss my shots. I don't have a problem with getting punished for missing my shots. You seem to have.

Your argument of aim is flawed as I've repeatedly explained and not one high TTK advocate has even attempted to address. To land the multiple required hits on the target to bring him down, you have to manage the recoil of that automatic fire and hold the machine gun on that moving target as he takes his leisurely stroll enjoying the scenery in the middle of the gunfight. This isn't a matter of aim. It's a matter of recoil management.

lold. Explain to me what's bad about having to hit multiple shots on a target in this scenario. You actually gotta have what you call "recoil management"? Sad. So...why is that a bad thing again? Needing to have another skill in the game? 😂

You're right, mixed high and low up. You haven't challenged any of what I said. You've stated the lack of tagging is the problem. Wouldn't need tagging if they were dead and punished like they'd be in Ins2014. Could add tagging, you're right. Would make it even more like a samey generic shooter instead of an Insurgency successor.

Why did I say recoil management is bad? I didn't. But having the mechanics of every other samey shooter (high TTK and tagging) instead of the superior mechanics of Ins2014 and DoI is a straight gameplay downgrade. How about we stick with my original reasoning which has yet to be addressed - it punishes mistakes.

@whitby where's your punishment for bad aim then? Where's the punishment for bad camping positions? Seems like you are focused on punishing players that move, but disregard the punishment for campers with bad positioning and/or aim.

So ok. I too want punishment for players that move badly. I also want punishment for players with bad camping positions and/or bad aim.

What do you propose to punish those players?

last edited by Benz

The only thing I would like to say is, it's an awful feeling when u shoot someone on full-auto and he turns to you and kills you instant.
I mean it is like powerless gun you have or is it pee-gun?
Sometimes it may be ping differences but mostly i felt it's something to do with ttk only. I have even had few incidents where I have clearly seen blood splash, still no kill!

@chraso that literally doesnt happen unless a) the hitreg went bananas or b) your aim was awful.

@benz
you can chk my streams for your a or b and confirm. Kindly tell me what is needed to be improved.

@chraso feel free to link me to a VOD with a timestamp.

@benz mate now you're just trying to change the argument

you said this

@benz said in TTK needs a kick up the @#$*:

Game didn't even get a 5k player peak, despite being literally free. Who cares. Really.

stop trying to hide your contradictions