Racism and toxic behavior

@thehappybub that is totally fair. But then we have the situation with doxing and the effects it has. Do you find swatting 100% moral? Even if they happen to shoot the swatted guy? Sure, one could assume that the concerned covernment is already listening 😃 I just think it is a relevant disdcussion to have. If not for the game itself, I believe it is an important discussion to have. Both to have your side presented, but I suppose the one I might represent at the moment. Funnily enough BFV seems to have had some ludicrous censoring of words :P.

My main concern is that if everything is allowed, people will not enjoy the atmosphere. Sure you can say mute this mute that, but do you honestly think people enjoy muting everyone yapping about n-bleep-er this, n-bleep-er that. Rape this, rape that. It could just deter people from communicating. So while it might not be NWI's responsibility, it might be in their best interest. Maybe it will be all fine and dandy, but maybe it won't.

last edited by Snuffeldjuret

@cootagechees Banning people from a game for things they say in game is just such a ridiculous concept to me. People should say what they want. So what that people are insulting? People will always be insulting.

Censoring games chats and social media just makes me thing back to my parent's stories about the KGB in Eastern Europe and shit. I'm frankly amazed that it only took one generation to mold such a large part of the population into like some pseudo-communists.

@Best_Pseudonym I believe everyone is aware that mute doesn't currently work. What I'm saying is that mute being broken is the only issue here and that they should fix it ASAP.

@snuffeldjuret said in Racism and toxic behavior:

do you honestly think people enjoy muting

Muting is such a simple and painless action that I'd be willing to sacrifice one click for people's freedom of expression.

last edited by thehappybub

@thehappybub

@thehappybub said in Racism and toxic behavior:

@cootagechees Banning people from a game for things they say in game is just such a ridiculous concept to me. People should say what they want. So what that people are insulting? People will always be insulting.

Censoring games chats and social media just makes me thing back to my parent's stories about the KGB in Eastern Europe and shit. I'm frankly amazed that it only took one generation to mold such a large part of the population into like some pseudo-communists.

lol at the comparison to oppression under the soviets. You are defending people using the n-word a little too vigorously and should consider sitting out on this conversation.

@cootagechees Whooooosh. The point isn't what they're saying, it's just their right to not be beaned from the game for simply saying or writing something.

last edited by thehappybub

@thehappybub said in Racism and toxic behavior:

@cootagechees Whooooosh. The point isn't what they're saying, it's just their right to not be beaned from the game for simply saying or writing something.

Nah, I think everyone understands your point. You're a white dude who isn't offended by anything. Cool. Nobody cares about your persecution complex.

If you want a community that doesn't drive people away with toxicity you need to moderate people that constantly shit up voice chat with racist bullshit.

@cootagechees Are you saying every player will act as a racist or neo-nazi given the opportunity? Or that racists and neo-nazis flock to uncensored games at an unprecedented rate?

Neither. Racist and toxic behavior will drive players away.

@cootagechees said in Racism and toxic behavior:

Racist and toxic behavior will drive players away.

Sure, I'm not arguing with that... I just don't see how muting the offending person doesn't fix the problem

@thehappybub it becomes a question about when it is "too many" players to mute? what if you have to mute all 31 other players? How many people will turn off voice comms if they have to mute 10 players each game? Maybe it is enough with 5? It is not really a question what you should do, but what people will do. Sure, maybe people should just mute. But what if they just get turned off and quit playing the game? Are you happy with people quitting the game because of toxic behavior?

If I were to speculate, I would speculate that if we have 5 players who just talk trash in the team, I will mute the voice all together. Partially so that I don't have to manually mute 5 players every game, and partially because I think people will shy away from saying things that actually relates to the game, so what is the point of having voice at all? It is not like voice comms are that important anyway...

last edited by Snuffeldjuret

@snuffeldjuret said in Racism and toxic behavior:

31 other players

This is a slippery slope argument that isn't based on any kind of realistic appraisal. Having played Sandstorm for like 40 hrs now I have yet to hear anyone be racist or whatever. Even with mute broken and people knowing about it, I haven't personally found this to be any kind of widespread problem. Unless you have a whole bunch of troll friends squading up together into matches I doubt you'll ever need to mute more than one person.

last edited by thehappybub

@cootagechees said in Racism and toxic behavior:

You're a white dude who isn't offended by anything. Cool. Nobody cares about your persecution complex.

Also way to assume things. I would expect someone of your moral fortitide to stay clear of trying to stereotype people lol. Anyway, how does a strawman argument add anything to this discussion?

last edited by thehappybub

31 other players

After my countless hours playing SS i've met 1 ( !! ) dude screaming the N-Word into his mic.

Again: don't argue with extreme examples, they are useless and don't lead to a good solution. It's pointless.

(voice comms for casual is pointless anyways. nobody uses them seriously and it actually kills the immersion a lot)

last edited by Benz

@thehappybub said in Racism and toxic behavior:

@cootagechees said in Racism and toxic behavior:

You're a white dude who isn't offended by anything. Cool. Nobody cares about your persecution complex.

Also way to assume things. I would expect someone of your moral fortitide to stay clear of trying to stereotype people lol. Anyway, how does a strawman argument add anything to this discussion?

You sound like you just learned the names of a bunch of logical fallacies, but can't identify or explain them properly.

@benz said in Racism and toxic behavior:

@snuffeldjuret What? You asked where i'd draw the line. I literally answered in the last paragraph.

Nice dodge on the rest though. Better go attack me personally rather than actually address my points and make your case. It's easier. I understand.

As of recently I can relate to this on a spiritual level.

@cootagechees said in Racism and toxic behavior:

a bunch of logical fallacies

At least I don't use them in my arguments.

@thehappybub

you just did, bud:
"I haven't personally found this to be any kind of widespread problem."

Did I win the argument because you're trying to pass off an anecdote as evidence?

Now go look up slippery slope and straw man and try to figure out why neither of these are in the statements you were referring to. Then, remember that we're not in high school debate class and none of these pathetic "gotcha" attempts mean anything.

You already stated that you cannot understand why anyone would be bothered by the word that most consider to be the most hateful word in the English language. So you are saying that you are completely ignorant on the issue of racism, is that right?

@cootagechees said in Racism and toxic behavior:

You already stated that you cannot understand why anyone would be bothered by the word that most consider to be the most hateful word in the English language

I never said that people shouldn't be bothered by it or that I don't understand why it bothers people ...

I understand perfectly that people don't like being insulted. Still, how does mute not solve the problem? How does banning a person who uses hate speech accomplish anything that mute doesn't?

The only thing a ban adds is a requirement of processing power by the developer, which has already been established as unrealistic.

last edited by thehappybub

@thehappybub

It's easy. You make sure people know the rules, then when they break them they get banned. They don't come back, they don't shit up the game for every new player. The community is less toxic overall. You can give people multiple chances and temporary bans/probations before a final ban. For official servers, they need volunteers to act as moderators if they're unwilling to pay people. For private servers, once those get going, they can moderate themselves.

Just muting doesn't solve the problem that these people are around and shitting up the community at every opportunity because they can do it with impunity.

@cootagechees said in Racism and toxic behavior:

For private servers, once those get going, they can moderate themselves.

This is the only way I see any moderation actually happening.

Giving banning powers to some volunteer moderators overall is definitely not a good idea.

@benz and really @everyone

And I've met at least 12-15 people yelling variations of that word adapted for middle-eastern people. It's very common in games where one side is considered "the bad guys" and also happen to not be brown/tan/not white. Take RS2 for example, if I had a dime for every time I heard "Gook", "Chink", and a whole slough of other unsavory things, I'd be a very rich man. I did end up muting more than half of the people I regularly play with, and it is tiring. Most of the time when I see the voip indicator come on I don't hear anything because I've already muted them.

I really think this is going to come down to a server admin issue, but I have no problems with words like (I really hate using "the n-word" when talking about THAT word. So I'm just gonna call it THAT word.) THAT word being censored in chat. There are several words I can think of absolutely zero context for outside of hate speech, and that stuff should be censored, I think Snuffled it right about a lot of that. No one is talking about picking up bundles of sticks anymore. Insurgency is not a public forum (har har), it's a privately hosted set of servers on someones intellectual property that you are paying to use. Freedom of speech does not apply here, and I think that not taking steps to make that known is a bad decision. In a particularly loaded subject such as the middle eastern conflicts that have been happening for the last 30 years I think it makes a lot of sense to set some ground rules about what kind of speech will be tolerated.

And I know it's not a solution, but can all those who use the word Sand bleeeeeep please switch to something less abrasive like Camel Jockey?

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