Their reason to remove AP is absolute trash

@mohdak said in Their reason to remove AP is absolute trash:

What made INS Source really good is its lethality. every single bullet shot is extremely threatening and dangerous. Now Sandstorm is basically a CoD clone where everyone is running around frantically because its takes too long to die.

The choice of AP ammo also made the player make very hard decisions when customizing.

Should I remove AP for a 7x scope? Should i take AP, but without an extended magazine? Should i take AP, but no grenades? Remove my heavy armor for AP ammo?...etc.

It made the player think about sacrificing power for more strategic options. Now you can basically add a thousand attachments and customization options, and you'd still have points to spare.

This game is losing its way.

Sandstorm is still lethal; even more so since AP is no longer a mandatory attachment.

"Should I remove AP for a 7x scope?" - No, because you rarely need that anyway. You can buy both since you always have at least ten supply anyway.

"Should i take AP, but without an extended magazine?" - Yes, because your gun becomes about three to five times more powerful. More ammo doesn't help if you die before you can fire it.

"Should i take AP, but no grenades?" - Yes, unless there's something pretty specific you wanna use those grenades for.

"Remove my heavy armor for AP ammo?" - You're already making a mistake buying Heavy Armor to begin with, to be honest.

Everyone's running around because the current movement speed is nuts. The slowdown-when-shot also doesn't seem to consistently apply.

This is still an Insurgency game, although currently the movement and ADS speed is Battlefield levels of too fast.

@mohdak said in Their reason to remove AP is absolute trash:

@mefirst You have no idea what you are talking about. As a sniper, i always make a hard decision if i should take the 7x scope or the AP ammo. Grenades or AP ammo. Heavy armor or AP ammo..etc.

What you said make no sense at all. Part of the fun experience was making tough decisions about sacrificing gun power for other tactical options, before going into battle.

First of all, good job insulting him even though he probably has more hours on Ins2014 than you do.

Second, if you can't choose between "x or AP" you're not doing something right. It's like asking "Do I want a cool attachment, or do I want my gun to kill people?".

At the end of the day, the damage boost is far better than anything else. Period. If you kill in 1-2 shots you don't have to worry about recoil at all. Sights are purely personal preference and I often run irons just to save supply. Suppressors are god-tier with AP.

@tooth-decay said in Their reason to remove AP is absolute trash:

Pretty much anything else with the possible exception of MGs and pistols and you needed AP ammo.

If you want your pistol to reliably kill AP was kinda needed. You could always go for leg shots (HP makes leg-shots a meta in itself), of course, but it's just harder to land vs torso shots.

@slazenger said in Their reason to remove AP is absolute trash:

Reminder that in Insurgency2014 a rifle with no AP ammo could 1 shot an unarmored enemy
Reminder that in Sandstorm a rifle (with no AP ammo) can not 1 shot an unarmored enemy

Disregarding both AP and armor their core gameplay has changed for the worse.

This is still a Beta and stuff can change. I heavily expect unarmored players to only survive pistol calibers in the very near future (and .45 ACP will probably one-shot an unarmored target) seeing as how many people on the forums can agree that this needs to be a thing.

Also a reminder that an FAL or M14 EBR needed three shots to kill a Heavy Armor target without AP while an M9 needed just two shots to the (upper) torso with AP equipped.

@s925033 Players didn't always use AP, but it was used by Ins2014 vets 99% of the time unless they needed supply to cross-map grenade or something. Not every player has to equip AP for it to be a meta.

@quadsword said in Their reason to remove AP is absolute trash:

Yes, I loved when I was basically always required to sacrifice 3 supply points or lose every 1v1 gunfight I got into.

Whatever. NWI has already nerfed armor to complete uselessness, so I'm sure you'll get your way eventually. They have absolutely no spine when it comes to dealing with feedback.

Go ahead. Call me a filthy casual / COD player / whatever. I don't care. I'm sick and tired of this discussion.

This sums up my feelings in a slightly-less sugarcoated fashion about the armor nerfs.

@ziggylata said in Their reason to remove AP is absolute trash:

I dont think AP ammo was a choice either. Its technically a choice but the choice is deciding between enjoying an icecream or drowning yourself...

Just quoted this because this analogy is the funniest one I've heard in a while lmao. It's pretty accurate though.

@benz said in Their reason to remove AP is absolute trash:

@slazenger it wasn't. 2.5k avg. peak player count over it's life span. That's not popular.

For an Indie game no one knew the devs from it was pretty popular. It got five million copies sold lol.

@thehappybub said in Their reason to remove AP is absolute trash:

@slazenger said in Their reason to remove AP is absolute trash:

in Sandstorm a rifle (with no AP ammo) can not 1 shot an unarmored enemy

I don't think this is how it should work. I agree that an unarmored target should get one shot by basically every rifle round. Still doesn't change my armor argument.

Besides, AP ammo still exists ... an MP7 is chambered for special AP rounds. Want AP? Go pick up the MP7 as breacher.

AP exists on the MP7, both bolt-action rifles, and for some reason, the M249 lol.

@jensiii said in Their reason to remove AP is absolute trash:

@snuffeldjuret said in Their reason to remove AP is absolute trash:

I don't think insurgency are that many tweaks away from a generic shooter with 0 players.

But it's also just a few tweaks away from being absolutely GOLDEN. It's a fine line I suppose. Depends on what is tweaked and how, obviously 🙂

Yeah, we're on the cusp of the rise or downfall of Sandstorm. We'll see what happens.

@jensiii said in Their reason to remove AP is absolute trash:

That doesn't mean TTK should be lowered. In my impression, it is still lower than most games?

Yes, it is lower.

Guns that kill in 1-3 shots with one exception (MP7) is pretty fuckin low for most games. The only games I could name with lower TTK is Verdun or probably Ins2014 with the AP meta.

last edited by MarksmanMax

@marksmanmax said in Their reason to remove AP is absolute trash:

The only games I could name with lower TTK

Holdfast: Nations at War … now that's a 1 shot TTK... if you can land the shot lmao

last edited by thehappybub

@thehappybub said in Their reason to remove AP is absolute trash:

@marksmanmax said in Their reason to remove AP is absolute trash:

The only games I could name with lower TTK

Holdfast: Nations at War … now that's a 1 shot TTK... if you can land the shot lmao

TTK is good. Consistency on the other hand lmao

Should I remove AP for a 7x scope? NO
Should i take AP, but without an extended magazine? NO
Should i take AP, but no grenades? NO
Remove my heavy armor for AP ammo? Armor is useless

prioritize AP over literally anything else unless ur gonna main explosives

the AP/HP system in the original insurgency was shit

@zakcha said in Their reason to remove AP is absolute trash:

the AP/HP system in the original insurgency was shit

Yup. In Sandstorm, no thank you.

We should just wait for mod that adds AP/HP rounds back. Something like "classic INS mod" after post-release.

Couldn't disagree more. AP ammo just made gun choice irrelevant. I assumed AP ammo lowered effectiveness on unarmored targets since that is how it would work in real life -- but no it was just a universal buff that made pistols just as lethal as battle rifles. This is absurd and unacceptable for a game that is supposed to be more realistic than average. The required shots to kill are still very low in this game without making every gun an instant death laser.

The ttk is fine, armor needs to be fixed, as wearing no armor at all is the same as light and really close to heavy armor, one thing that would fix your suppossed cod ttk is tagging, but it got bugged and it didnt work, hope they get it back next patch, as it is a big part on ins to lose your speed while getting shot at. AP is straight up trash as that was a mindless decision to have, just take ap and heavy armor, no attachments and just be a beast one shotting everyone.

Pretty sure this is what these TTK people will want next if they get their way:
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