Why Insurgency Sandstorm Fails as a Successor to the Original

I am a huge fan of the original Insurgency. I have played a total of 975 hours on the original Insurgency. However, my love for the original Insurgency is mostly due to one game mode called "Ambush". I have found Firefight and Skirmish to be bland and boring. Push was my least favorite mode because winning relied heavily on sheer force and not tactics (people would win by using explosives to clear objectives of enemies). Ambush and Elimination stood out among all the game modes of the original Insurgency. Ambush stands out because it relies heavily on skill and tactics. The round would end if: the VIP is eliminated, time ran out, an entire team is eliminated, or the VIP makes it to one of two objectives. The multitude of ways to win a round greatly allowed for interesting matches. Ambush servers contain players that were different than other game mode servers. People would talk all the time and there was a great sense of community. Everyone seemed to know each other on Ambush servers. Sadly, New World Interactive showed no love for Ambush. They favored the other game modes and pushed the Firefight game mode as an E-sports game mode. I was very sad to find out that Ambush and Elimination were not in Insurgency Sandstorm. This is further proof that NWI has no love for Ambush. Anyone who has played Ambush enough to understand this game mode knows why this game mode should be loved. It has a similar feel like Search and Destroy in Call of Duty MW2/BO and Rainbow Six Siege. Rainbow Six Siege's growing success has demonstrated the desire for game modes like this. I've been playing Rainbow Six Siege since its release.

I preordered Insurgency Sandstorm despite it not having Ambush. Even though I am saddened by NWI lack of love for Ambush I still want their company to make games. I have played the Insurgency Sandstorm beta for 24 hours. I find the game play of Insurgency Sandstorm to be boring and uninspired. They got rid of AP rounds because the said "everyone used them by default in the original game". This statement is not true. Now everyone uses heavy armor or you are at a huge disadvantage if you don't use heavy armor. It now takes twice as many rounds to kill someone. In the original Insurgency it was possible to kill someone with one bullet from almost any gun. Sprinting then aiming right after sprinting results in a huge increase in recoil. This makes it nearly impossible to flank enemy players and immediately engage in firefights. The new meta is to camp, move slowly, or cover movement with smoke grenades. This has led to a bland and unsatisfying game play.

There is much more I find dissatisfying about Insurgency Sandstorm. Instead of continuing with my rant please take a look at a montage video I made in 2015 of me playing the original Insurgency. The video demonstrates the mechanics that made the original Insurgency so great. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ao1oigJLgiM

First of all, its a beta, not all the gamemodes are in, or if Ambush isnt in release, it may not be that hard to mod it in, but it probably wont be official as they've said it would split the community.

Ap armor was a no brainer choice, you always took it, you one shotted everybody, thats why you may think a lot of the weapons one hit in source.

Heavy armor doesnt protect you that much tbh, you may be able to survive 1 or 2 more shots at long distances, but at close range you're fucked, you should be a bit slower with it tbh, still headshots are 1 shot as always, tagging is bugged which is an essential part of Insurgency, hoping they fix it next update.

Now the sway on aim after sprinting is stupid, it makes it really hard to hit enemies and should be improved.

Well that's just like, your opinion man. Much as I know everyone is going to want me hanged from the gallows for saying it, I'm actually enjoying Sandstorm more than the original. I like the fact that we don't have AP rounds turning everything into instagib lasers. I like that armor has a purpose now.

Another "I have X hours on INS2, I don't like Sandstorm because it's not INS2"-thread. Thread title lead me to expect some sort of backing for the claim the title made, but instead it was just a bunch of personal opinions.

It has been discussed a lot what things need fixing and why. Let's see what the next patch brings us.

There's a lot of work to do to fix the game and prepare it to competitive scenario. But THIS IS NOT INS1! If you dont like INS2 and how it was made for competitive e-sports, go play INS1... it's still available to play.

@quadsword said in Why Insurgency Sandstorm Fails as a Successor to the Original:

I'm actually enjoying Sandstorm more than the original

Same here.

Also @Duartz ins2 is the 2014 insurgency.

@duartz said in Why Insurgency Sandstorm Fails as a Successor to the Original:

There's a lot of work to do to fix the game and prepare it to competitive scenario. But THIS IS NOT INS1! If you dont like INS2 and how it was made for competitive e-sports, go play INS1... it's still available to play.

I don't see much being made for competitive e-Sports. Low skill ceiling...awfully large maps...

just because it has "competitive" matchmaking, doesn't mean the game is actually a good, competitive game.

@duartz Just a heads up the source version is called INS2 and Sandstorm is just Sandstorm or INSS

@benz i do agree the skill ceiling kinda low, but its beta, changes will be made (hopefully). As for the maps, im p sure they have smaller maps in comp.

@benz @pieck Comp Firefight has much smaller maps. Only a fraction of the map in question is used as the playable area.

@vector50cal Also, another fucking Ambush crybaby? Jesus, I got over SS not having Ambush on release like six months ago, and it's my most played PvP mode by far.

Insurgency Sandstorm Community Moderator

As mentioned, the original Insurgency (2014) is referred to as Insurgency 2. Sandstorm is literately just referred to as Insurgency Sandstorm. Secondly, let's try to keep our views and opinions civil. No need to insult others for their own opinion.

@marksmanmax said in Why Insurgency Sandstorm Fails as a Successor to the Original:

@benz @pieck Comp Firefight has much smaller maps. Only a fraction of the map in question is used as the playable area.

Uhm, no. It's the same maps as in casual firefight. Literally.

@vector50cal I liked ambush, but I'm kind of neutral about it...

... other than that, ding dong your opinion is wrong, time to dissect...

@vector50cal said in Why Insurgency Sandstorm Fails as a Successor to the Original:

They got rid of AP rounds because the said "everyone used them by default in the original game". This statement is not true.

It's totally true. What game were you playing? AP rounds weren't just meta, they were required to even play the game. Rifles in the game were terribly unbalanced, the only thing that made them "balanced" was AP rounds because it just made everything instagib.

@vector50cal said in Why Insurgency Sandstorm Fails as a Successor to the Original:

Now everyone uses heavy armor or you are at a huge disadvantage if you don't use heavy armor.

This isn't true because heavy armor barely offers any protection since the latest patch. At close range its basically pointless and at range it'll take like 1 or 2 extra shots. Besides, stupid cheesing like something as simple as putting a long barrel on a G3A3 one shots through heavy armor anyway. Armor needs a buff against things that make sense caliber-wise and it needs to be more expensive.

@vector50cal said in Why Insurgency Sandstorm Fails as a Successor to the Original:

In the original Insurgency it was possible to kill someone with one bullet from almost any gun.

This is true, but whether this was good or bad is highly subjective and the crux of the whole TTK debate. I found it to be a bad thing because (1) it made having variations in guns pointless, they were really just skins (with slight handling variations) (2) it made gameplay too fast, too jumpy, too slide-y, too much flicking around (3) it made everyone solo everything, yea maybe it was punishing when a person started playing, but once they got a grasp of the game it made things like coop a joke.

Headshots and most bodyshots are still osk. Even though I'm in the higher TTK camp, I still believe unarmored targets should be osk to the head, torso, abdomen. Armor should actually do something.

@vector50cal said in Why Insurgency Sandstorm Fails as a Successor to the Original:

Sprinting then aiming right after sprinting results in a huge increase in recoil.

Who'da thunk running would destabilize your aim for a second?

@vector50cal said in Why Insurgency Sandstorm Fails as a Successor to the Original:

The new meta is to camp, move slowly, or cover movement with smoke grenades.

Sounds like the gameplay is … wait for it.... more tactical! wow! Seems NWI accomplished its goal... Moving slowly, covering advances with things like smoke, I'm literally getting hard rn. The camp part is a bit annoying in some versus matches, but I mean people camp in every game.

Also nice video, but most of those mechanics are what made me not like ins2 (don't get me wrong I liked ins2, I just felt things were off about it) and wish there was something better.

TBH you're full-autoing over half the time. All the "I want SS to be just like ins2" ppl usually cite wanting to semiauto all the time as being a strength of ins2. My usual counter is that since every shot was instagib, people sprayed in ins2 all the time as well … which your video is kind of proving as a correct observation to me. Also, your playstyle relies heavily on getting kill confirmation from the server you played on, which is an issue for me in and of itself. Finally, another common complaint is that ADS time is too fast in SS, your playstyle also reflects a requirement for instant ADS time.

Sorry if I lumped you in with the low ttkers.

last edited by thehappybub

@Vector50cal

"Original Insurgency" You guys sure are funny.

This is the original

I think the game is more of a successor to the mod than it is to INS2, and I dare say its doing it very well.

last edited by Marxman LMC

@marksmanmax The moment I read the OP gushing about Ambush, I pretty much immediately realized this was yet another "GIBS ME AMBUSH OR I WALK" thread.

There's nothing wrong with liking Ambush, but... can't you try out other modes even if your favorite isn't present? I'm sure even if the devs don't add it themselves, it will be modded in eventually.

@thehappybub

Sounds like the gameplay is … wait for it.... more tactical! wow! Seems NWI accomplished its goal... Moving slowly, covering advances with things like smoke, I'm literally getting hard rn. The camp part is a bit annoying in some versus matches, but I mean people camp in every game.

Thats the same shit you did in Source. You can play 90-95% the same way you did in source and you should be ok. Just learn the new maps, adapt what you do, to those maps et voila! Use smoke, check your corners, push up, camp, flank. A game is as tactical as you make it with the tools provided, and the tools are pretty much the same in sandstorm as they are in source. The gameplay is quite similar.

TTK is slightly higher ~1-2 bullets generally in my experience, which is noticable when you add in some frustrating ping issues (I avg 90-100 ping in Sandstorm where I would get ~60 on dedicated servers in source). I dont really mind it but there is one big factor that exacerbates this problem beyond belief.

That is the extreme levels of sway generated by low stamina/suppression which absolutely ruin a lot of potential gunfights (i.e Fun egagements, what Im mostly playing this game for). Now I dont mind some level of sway. A little bit. But what we have now is just downright counter productive to a quality shooter. There has to be some change to the sway. Lower it but increase recoil for instance.

Right now the Sway and the (too high) movement speed/strafing are the game play elements that I believe most need to be adjusted.

@captain-price Sorry for insulting Vector to his face (I've played Ambush rounds with him lmao). Still, though, I've seen so many of these threads on the Focus Forums / Discussion boards about hardcore Ambush players wanting Ambush back even if NWI has to break their legs to get it done. It's ridiculous. I've said it before and I've said it again: As a hardcore Ambush player in Ins2014, I'll just wait until it's added and play other Coop and PvP modes in the meantime. Let NWI take their time and actually flush out Ambush and don't rush anything. Rushed games are garbage (just look at PUBG lmao).

"They got rid of AP rounds because the said "everyone used them by default in the original game". This statement is not true. Now everyone uses heavy armor or you are at a huge disadvantage if you don't use heavy armor. It now takes twice as many rounds to kill someone. In the original Insurgency it was possible to kill someone with one bullet from almost any gun. Sprinting then aiming right after sprinting results in a huge increase in recoil. This makes it nearly impossible to flank enemy players and immediately engage in firefights."

I know you're an Ins2014 veteran, but I'm not sure if you're telling the whole story here.

First of all, yeah sure guns often one-shot in Ins2014, but whenever I played Ambush with or against you back in the day you almost always (on Security anyway) used an MP5k /w AP and a suppressor and a frag grenade, which for all intents and purposes is one of the cheesiest loadouts in the game.

It's probably good for game balance that it takes "twice as many rounds to kill someone". Sure, that would be an issue if Ins2014 had high TTK, but it didn't. Guns typically kill in two shots instead of one lmao. You can't hit someone twice? Hell, with that MP5k /w AP loadout you'd have to hit a Heavy Armor target 2-3 times in Ins2014.

Sprinting and then ADSing results in increased sway, not recoil. I had absolutely zero issues running halfway across the map and then gunning half a dozen Insurgents from the back with a Mk 18.

"The new meta is to camp, move slowly, or cover movement with smoke grenades." - So you mean, the Insurgency series became a tactical FPS? dafuq I signed up for a game that's a hardcore, more realistic version of CoD4 which is literally Ins2014 in one sentence.

It's interesting too. If you look at 12 vs 12 games of Ambush, let's break up the teams into three skill levels.

  1. Rookie - Won't use smoke grenades to save their lives. VIP probably dies.

  2. Soldiers - Plays more tactical, uses smoke grenades and covers the VIP at all times. Pretty successful.

  3. Veterans - Also never uses smoke grenades and just use AP and twitch reflexes to gun down everyone. VIP might survive, who knows about that guy.

From a guy with at least 600 hours in Ambush (and wrote a pretty in-depth Ambush guide), I'd say that's a pretty accurate summary overall.

last edited by MarksmanMax

@benz said in Why Insurgency Sandstorm Fails as a Successor to the Original:

@marksmanmax said in Why Insurgency Sandstorm Fails as a Successor to the Original:

@benz @pieck Comp Firefight has much smaller maps. Only a fraction of the map in question is used as the playable area.

Uhm, no. It's the same maps as in casual firefight. Literally.

Well, Casual and Comp Firefight both have smaller maps lmao. That's what I was trying to say.

That being said, a 12 vs 12 on those small maps kinda hurts inside, not gonna lie.

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