Piss Poor AI

Enough said!

@fattmedic indeed. The thing that gets me most though is that the bots are exactly the same as in ins2. It's like they just plopped it right back in.

@thehappybub Nah. Ins2014 bots got nothing on SS bots. At least they always missed their first burst of rounds before they started killing you lmao.

@marksmanmax da fuq u talkin about dawg. SS bots are exactly like the brutal bots of ins2. The only difference is they placed a few of the bots in the corners of some objectives. The only reason they're "harder" is because they cheat by nature and some have unreal reflexes and aims, same as ins2.

In ins2 I got rpg sniped across the map, same here.
In Ins2 I got a Molotov coming right on me from like 100+ meters away, same here.
In ins2 there were bots that twitch headshot me even though they were facing the opposite direction, same in SS.
In ins2 if you got up close to a bot it would get wild confused, still happens here.
In Ins2 bots couldn't comprehend multi-story objectives, they still don't.
In Ins2 bots constantly formed conga lines, same deal.

last edited by thehappybub

@thehappybub Reasonable, I suppose, although SS bots at least try to take cover when shot at and also lean (which is kinda annoying tbh).

@marksmanmax do they actually lean? I've yet to observe that behavior.

all the logic of this game yet fits into these:

extends 'bot_AI'
func _kill_player()
randomize bullet_quantity_to_kill (1; 100) & distance_to_oneshot (0; 1000)

=totally unpredictable (& certainly nothing related to realism at all)

I should also add to my list the dumb things the bots do:

  • Some of them autistically staring up into the sky for no reason
  • Some of them autistically staring at their feet and firing at them for no reason
  • Some missing their entire mag on me if I just shimmy a bit
  • Some switch to their knife (?) and just kind of run around like that
  • Conga line (my favorite way to wipe the whole bot team with one shotgun shot)

I feel like the bots have like this "difficulty" distribution or something that's a normal curve where some of them are just plain retarded and some do the lasering.

@thehappybub
The only bots I’ve seen with knives out are the suicide bombers, although I did have one instance where as the last player alive the bot commander walked right up behind me (because I couldn’t hear his footsteps) with his binoculars out and proceeded to try to call in a mortar strike...scared the crap out of me

@eyeofhorus I once almost died by a suicide bomber's knife lol.

@thehappybub said in Piss Poor AI:

I feel like the bots have like this "difficulty" distribution or something that's a normal curve where some of them are just plain retarded and some do the lasering.
I agree, Ins2 bots are have similarly wide variance of competence. I have to admit it's challenging to make an AI that is consistently "beatable" and challenging enough to be satisfying, when the weapons are so lethal and without health regen.

last edited by Glenn

@glenn I understand that its hard, and I'm in no way expecting a perfect result. I just wish there was visible improvement, not just a copy paste.

last edited by thehappybub

@thehappybub

Hehe, the conga lines takes the challenge away, or lack of ability to spread out and act more like in guerilla warfare - This would be the most important behaviour to improve in my opinion if any improvements should be done.

The modded servers from Insurgency 2014, especially the pve BEF server gave me just the right challenge, and hopefully we will see similar mods in this game.

I do like that they often use melee attacks when up close even in smoke, which is a change in the right direction, though a small change. Hopefully they will leave out some of the noises/shouts the bots currently makes on higher difficulty in the finished version as well.

The molotov throwed directly at players from 100 meters could be a good thing. It would probably be easy to implement a behaviour where the bots randomly hit and miss with the throw. They always hit directly from such distance? The farther away a frag/molly is thrown from, the easier it is to predict and avoid - What would you see as an improvement in that regard?

Look at other pve multiplayer games, they often add difficulty by making enemies bullet sponges, having higher damage output or increase their number, but still acting like jackasses:)

I have yet to see anyone give examples of bots actually performing good in any multiplayer game though, "Poor AI" compared to a specific game which does this successfully would be interesting, as it would be cool to analyze that game and see what they did right, to get a feel of the actual situation regarding bots in multiplayer games in general. It would also create a platform to discuss what other developers in such cases have been able to achieve in the bot development department when also creating a multiplayer game.

The developers gotta balance their time to create a good game, and how much resources would it be logical to invest in pve when the main selling point is pvp, marketing wise.
After all, you get to play against real people and get all the challenge you could possibly need, and personally I find it cool that they even have bots in a game like this so I can enjoy the more relaxed experience of pve, practice reflexes and test weapons without competing.

From the last developer Q&A on youtube, it is mentioned only one person in NWI deals with A.I - which might be good enough regarding where the focus in a pvp game should be, though I respect that a lot of people see it differently.

As we have discussed earlier, it is difficult to compare a multiplayer game to a singleplayer game regarding bots, so that games like Metro and S.T.A.L.K.E.R - having both fun engagements with bots - Falls into a different category.

From the article I linked to about the (d)evolution of A.I. in video games it is also a point in my opinion that most people don't actually understands all the effort it is to make solid A.I. in video games (not referring to happybub or anyone in particular, just gamers in general according to the article).

As you probably know already (just for those interested) there is not much advanced A.I. in video games as the bots don't learn anything as far as I know and improve their own coding - That would probably be a bad idea and would make the bots exploit bugs and glitches as they just use the most optimal strategy disregarding game rules not clearly defined -Everyone would hate them and never win a game=D

Scripted behaviour, preset paths and "AI nodes" are all a lot easier to implement in singleplayer games where you can have triggers to activate behaviour because of player position or pushing a button, etc. More players change all this significantly.

I definitely agree with you though, just saying there is a lot of elements to consider both regarding resources spent on development, cost to performance on the system and actual reasons for a developer to invest in this regarding cost/gain of doing so.

I'd rather have the developers making the game the best pvp experience possible, but would of course welcome an improvement of the bots.

Specific suggestions to small changes the bots could do would from my guessing be the easiest way of getting the developers to actually change bot behaviour, as I believe the developers are aware of the current situation but need to prioritize their resource spending carefully.

So from my point of view this thread could be vitalized by:

  1. Suggestions to small improvements in the bots in Sandstorm (easy to implement).
  2. Examples of other games with multiple players that does the job better and being specific in what situation.

It would also be nice if being seen by any bot didn't give the technical DShK wallhack and perfect accuracy to kill me inside a building.

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