Offset iron sights

Would be really nice if the game added offset sights as a weapon mod (side mounted iron sights) so if you had a scope you could switch quickly to iron sights at close quarters.

Side mounted iron sight?

How horrible it would be that half of your screen would be blocked by the scope!
Why would you use iron sight with scope?
If the visibility is the concern, than don't use scope at all.

As useful as I think this could be, e.g. for DMRs, it seems like it'd make the game a bit too much like Call of Duty with crazy attachments

@chraso said in Offset iron sights:

Side mounted iron sight?

How horrible it would be that half of your screen would be blocked by the scope!
Why would you use iron sight with scope?
If the visibility is the concern, than don't use scope at all.

The point is that you have a backup sight for close range in case you get into a situation that requires it, so that if you have to engage in CQB you arent stuck having to hip fire and lose accuracy. OP is referring to a "Canted Ironsight" which IRL can be iron sights, reflex, dot sight, really anything that can be mounted to a rail.

@tkdestroyer2 said in Offset iron sights:

As useful as I think this could be, e.g. for DMRs, it seems like it'd make the game a bit too much like Call of Duty with crazy attachments

Quite the opposite actually, heres an opinion piece for them in BF4. ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQYVcl1arxM ) The game would benefit highly from canted sights in my opinion, it would be a very useful piece of kit and I myself hope they make it in.

have handgun boy!

FAL or Mk14 are a great example for weapons who could benefit from offset iron sights.

I support that proposal !
Even the game Ground Branch has that second sight on side rails of the primary weapons as it is a realistic feature !

last edited by GSG_9_LIGHTNING

These are far more popular in the civilian 3-gun competition world than they are with combat units. Not sure why exactly, but most combat rifles I see just go with a red-dot like the Trijicon RMR mounted to the top of a combat optic like the ACOG. Low power variable optics like the Elcan Specter and various makes of 1-6x combat optics are also becoming really popular with SOF types, making offset irons rather pointless.

I don’t support this idea.
The idea of making a loadout is that you design it for how your going to play. If you can have multiple attachments and switch between them easily then you can can 1 loadout for every situation.
It’s the same as the people asking for a flip up magnifier to the 1x redot.
I don’t agree, build your layout for long range or cqb. Choose one, but you can’t have both.

It’s not a Rambo simulator, you can’t do everything. Work with your team and the classes they have.
If all you do is play coop I’m sure community servers will allow you to carry 2 load outs.

last edited by ReeceAUS

The whole system of paying more points for a visual preference (zoom level) doesn't really line up for me in the first place. The idea that the game intentionally makes things harder than they should be, counter to good gameplay and realism, is annoying.

In real life, shooting with holo optics is a both eyes open affair, and the outline of the sight becomes less clear when focusing on the distant target. The amount of screen real estate and opacity in the current optics is not great, but to me that can act as the downside for having the higher-magnification sights.

But given the speed and difficulty of aiming with higher-zoom scopes, side irons are a good idea. There is no good reason not to add them.

Nah... The whole game is balanced around loadouts. I know this attatchment exists in real life and that it would be great to have ingame, but it's kinda OP and everyone would then use it. Just like AP ammo in Insurgency2...

As @ReeceAUS said, you have to make choices. Equip and try your best. Your secondary weapon is there for you if you need some iron sights in a CQC scenario.

last edited by Grumf

Hi, I don't mean to duplicate my opinions, but I see the same aspects being discussed in both technical and general forum so I'll pasted in my reply from technical here, please correct me if there is a more preferred way to link threads dealing with the same apect :

FLIPABLE SCOPES 1/2
"@pacalis said in Your sight needs to have a 1x sight feature no matter how much the zoom.:

Hi, the reason for not giving all these options in games (for example cs:go or Insurgency2014), is because it makes the game less gear choice dependent. A sniper is very lethal in bigger open areas, and the trade off is that in close quarters they are forced to use a pistol. Game becomes less class-dependent and because of that also less team-oriented and more all-round when introducing 1x sight feature no matter your scope. So when you choose to be a sniper oriented player, you know that you will be most effective on your team when covering the open grounds and trying to avoid cqb if possible. This balances the classes, or everyone would use a long-range scope, because of no drawbacks.

Also remember that you can switch weapon with the enemies you kill, so if you want to change role mid-game, you can time it with a kill. It is of course a question of taste, but personally I wish the game was even more class dependent to increase (and force) different types of play-styles."

REALISM VS IMMERSION 2/2:
As a complete side note, I see the realism vs gameplay argument used a lot across the forum, and it is very interesting dilemma, which I guess is impossible to fully agree on in either camp as we all have our own ideas of what realism means in a game. With that being said, I believe games in general (even Sandstorm) is so extremely unrealistic anyway, that I am not able to "feel" the realism no matter how hard a computer game tries to "behave" like the real counterpart, and therefore always argue for or against a statement based on what is added or lost in regards to gameplay. It should look real as far as graphics allow, and borrow weapon mechanics and such which mimics reality for sure, but gameplay wise? To a small extent, yes, but real warfare strategies are both tedious, boring, ptsd-stimulating and takes a huge amount of time to plan out from what I both have talked with military personnel and read about the subject, so the argument realism in itself should imho maybe be backed up by some game-play-enhancing points as well in order to open up for further discussion. I am aware several players may have real military experience, and they probably know what I'm getting at even if they might disagree (I'm not against realism in itself, by all means, but it's not exactly a precise milsim this game, and will never be - Which is great imo, as the semi-realistic 14 hour mission games out there is not for me anyway).

An example, but the list is practically endless. You are aware that US Forces used an estimated 250 000 bullets for each rebel killed (year 2005). This is of course partly because a lot of bullets are used in training, stored, lost etc, but also because the 4F strategy (find,fix,flank,finish) is so important in real warfare but does not stimulate fast or fun gameplay...

last edited by Pacalis

@chraso said in Offset iron sights:

have handgun boy!

Theres ALOT of scenarios where pulling a handgun is way too slow

@maa_bunny said in Offset iron sights:

These are far more popular in the civilian 3-gun competition world than they are with combat units. Not sure why exactly, but most combat rifles I see just go with a red-dot like the Trijicon RMR mounted to the top of a combat optic like the ACOG. Low power variable optics like the Elcan Specter and various makes of 1-6x combat optics are also becoming really popular with SOF types, making offset irons rather pointless.

You just explained why exactly they are less popular with combat units. Offset irons are obviously going to be pointless to somebody that can shave milliseconds by simply mounting an RMR ontop of their ACOG. Takes less time to simply lower your weapon an inch than to twist it 45 degrees.

@reeceaus said in Offset iron sights:

I don’t support this idea.
The idea of making a loadout is that you design it for how your going to play. If you can have multiple attachments and switch between them easily then you can can 1 loadout for every situation.
It’s the same as the people asking for a flip up magnifier to the 1x redot.
I don’t agree, build your layout for long range or cqb. Choose one, but you can’t have both.

It’s not a Rambo simulator, you can’t do everything. Work with your team and the classes they have.
If all you do is play coop I’m sure community servers will allow you to carry 2 load outs.

This is false logic, one loadout would never be optimal for every situation (easy examples: canted iron wouldnt make a mosin viable for CQB objective pushing and a flip up magnifier wouldnt make an AK a great choice for sniping). The entire point of a flip up magnifier is so you can temporarily and less effectively play a long range roll IF you have to in a situation of need, and a canted ironsight is so you arent caught with your manhood out if somebody kicks down the door to your room and you dont have enough time to switch to a sidearm which both are pretty frequent situations in this game. You seem to entirely miss the point of these attachments, they arent used for advantages, they are used for flexibility in situational environments and the cons are pretty obvious.

@grumf said in Offset iron sights:

Nah... The whole game is balanced around loadouts. I know this attatchment exists in real life and that it would be great to have ingame, but it's kinda OP and everyone would then use it. Just like AP ammo in Insurgency2...

As @ReeceAUS said, you have to make choices. Equip and try your best. Your secondary weapon is there for you if you need some iron sights in a CQC scenario.

They arent OP in the slightest, your visibility goes down a good 50% or more depending on your main sight, and you are using ironsights. This has no correlation with AP ammo, shitty secondary sights arent going to make your guns any better, simply more flexible.

@howardhughes said in Offset iron sights:

You just explained why exactly they are less popular with combat units. Offset irons are obviously going to be pointless to somebody that can shave milliseconds by simply mounting an RMR ontop of their ACOG. Takes less time to simply lower your weapon an inch than to twist it 45 degrees.

Yah, maybe. There are problems with red-dots mounted above combat optics though too - namely having a wicked high height-over-bore. Offset irons don't have that problem.

@howardhughes said in Offset iron sights:

"This is false logic, one loadout would never be optimal for every situation (easy examples: canted iron wouldnt make a mosin viable for CQB objective pushing and a flip up magnifier wouldnt make an AK a great choice for sniping)."

My answer:
The whole concept of NWI earlier game day of infamy was sniper rifles with iron sights in cqb, and it is not bad in the right hands. An AK single shot with a scope is also lethal in the right hands. 100s of people can confirm this and many, many youtube videos. An M16A4 with a 2x scope is a sniper in my hands and many other players, but it takes time to get familiar with such game mechanics.
I would be very lethal in all situations and a lot of skilled players would also.

@howardhughes said in Offset iron sights:

"The entire point of a flip up magnifier is so you can temporarily and less effectively play a long range roll IF you have to in a situation of need,"

My answer:
Yes, we all agree on this. Situation of need? You can either pick up enemy gun, use pistol or practice sniper class until you effectively know how to do it with current balance mechanics as well.

@howardhughes said in Offset iron sights:

"and a canted ironsight is so you arent caught with your manhood out if somebody kicks down the door to your room and you dont have enough time to switch to a sidearm which both are pretty frequent situations in this game."

My answer:
If you have a sniper you should keep out of cqb, that is the point. If you have a sniper class and wants to take an objective house you either pick up an enemy gun or equip your pistol when entering cqb. If you are surprised by enemy when sniping from some other house, then your example applies, but then you have already been compromised, hunted down and shown a lack of situational awareness, that disadvantage is the point of not implementing flip up/down scopes. It is intentional by design to create diversity and different classes who must practice different tactics to succeed.

@howardhughes said in Offset iron sights:

"You seem to entirely miss the point of these attachments, they arent used for advantages, they are used for flexibility in situational environments and the cons are pretty obvious."

My answer:
Flexibility is an advantage in itself. Cons currently in the game for balancing purposes would be down-sized, which is why classes would be less significant.

last edited by Pacalis

@howardhughes said in Offset iron sights:

They arent OP in the slightest, your visibility goes down a good 50% or more depending on your main sight, and you are using ironsights. This has no correlation with AP ammo, shitty secondary sights arent going to make your guns any better, simply more flexible.

Effectively making it better. Flexible is better. I'll just have a powerful one-shot killing G3 that can be used in CQC AND still be effective at 80+ meters shots. That will allow me not to take a secondary weapon with me so I can have more armour or grenades. Totally not OP. Just... flexible... Yeah. That sounds reasonable, when put like this. Whether it's pure delusion or not doesn't matter, as long at it doesn't "sound" like totally unbalanced when formulating it in a certain manner, we should be good, right ?

@grumf said in Offset iron sights:

That will allow me not to take a secondary weapon with me so I can have more armour or grenades. Totally not OP.

If the offset iron sight attachment cost the same as a basic secondary at 1 or 2 points, which isn't unreasonable at all, then it balances out pretty well. And electing not to take a secondary means you have no backup weapon when your primary runs dry.

@howardhughes said in Offset iron sights:

so you arent caught with your manhood out if somebody kicks down the door to your room

If you're within manhood engagement distances IRL an iron sight isn't going to do you much good, they take too long to acquire. That's instinct shooting range.

@pacalis said in Offset iron sights:

@howardhughes said in Offset iron sights:

"This is false logic, one loadout would never be optimal for every situation (easy examples: canted iron wouldnt make a mosin viable for CQB objective pushing and a flip up magnifier wouldnt make an AK a great choice for sniping)."

My answer:
The whole concept of NWI earlier game day of infamy was sniper rifles with iron sights in cqb, and it is not bad in the right hands. An AK single shot with a scope is also lethal in the right hands. 100s of people can confirm this and many, many youtube videos. An M16A4 with a 2x scope is a sniper in my hands and many other players, but it takes time to get familiar with such game mechanics.
I would be very lethal in all situations and a lot of skilled players would also.

@howardhughes said in Offset iron sights:

"The entire point of a flip up magnifier is so you can temporarily and less effectively play a long range roll IF you have to in a situation of need,"

My answer:
Yes, we all agree on this. Situation of need? You can either pick up enemy gun, use pistol or practice sniper class until you effectively know how to do it with current balance mechanics as well.

@howardhughes said in Offset iron sights:

"and a canted ironsight is so you arent caught with your manhood out if somebody kicks down the door to your room and you dont have enough time to switch to a sidearm which both are pretty frequent situations in this game."

My answer:
If you have a sniper you should keep out of cqb, that is the point. If you have a sniper class and wants to take an objective house you either pick up an enemy gun or equip your pistol when entering cqb. If you are surprised by enemy when sniping from some other house, then your example applies, but then you have already been compromised, hunted down and shown a lack of situational awareness, that disadvantage is the point of not implementing flip up/down scopes. It is intentional by design to create diversity and different classes who must practice different tactics to succeed.

@howardhughes said in Offset iron sights:

"You seem to entirely miss the point of these attachments, they arent used for advantages, they are used for flexibility in situational environments and the cons are pretty obvious."

My answer:
Flexibility is an advantage in itself. Cons currently in the game for balancing purposes would be down-sized, which is why classes would be less significant.

Its a WW2 shooter, of course a CQB bolt action would be more viable in that setting, the whole point i was making is sure you could do it, but its not the best option.

Picking up enemy weapons makes no sense 90% of the time as you get stuck with a rifle with a single mag IF you are lucky and they didnt use up half of it before they died.

Yes a sniper should stay out of CQB, yes you should switch to pistol if you need to deal with CQB. Diversity doesnt mean leaving out pieces of kit that could save you, nor is situational awareness going to help you every time, theres plenty of cases where you wouldnt be able to hear someone much less see them.

Balancing wouldnt be down sized, classes will always be significant, this assertion that you could have a single loadout for every situation just because of canted ironsights or flip up magnifiers is incorrect.

@grumf said in Offset iron sights:

@howardhughes said in Offset iron sights:

They arent OP in the slightest, your visibility goes down a good 50% or more depending on your main sight, and you are using ironsights. This has no correlation with AP ammo, shitty secondary sights arent going to make your guns any better, simply more flexible.

Effectively making it better. Flexible is better. I'll just have a powerful one-shot killing G3 that can be used in CQC AND still be effective at 80+ meters shots. That will allow me not to take a secondary weapon with me so I can have more armour or grenades. Totally not OP. Just... flexible... Yeah. That sounds reasonable, when put like this. Whether it's pure delusion or not doesn't matter, as long at it doesn't "sound" like totally unbalanced when formulating it in a certain manner, we should be good, right ?

Whats delusion is thinking canted ironsights with alot of cons is the same as ARMOR PENETRATING ROUNDS. You are acting like this attachment would have no effect on your loadout cost and weight, implemented correctly, taking it would mean sacrificing something else.

@maa_bunny said in Offset iron sights:

@grumf said in Offset iron sights:

That will allow me not to take a secondary weapon with me so I can have more armour or grenades. Totally not OP.

If the offset iron sight attachment cost the same as a basic secondary at 1 or 2 points, which isn't unreasonable at all, then it balances out pretty well. And electing not to take a secondary means you have no backup weapon when your primary runs dry.

@howardhughes said in Offset iron sights:

so you arent caught with your manhood out if somebody kicks down the door to your room

If you're within manhood engagement distances IRL an iron sight isn't going to do you much good, they take too long to acquire. That's instinct shooting range.

A canted iron you could switch to fast would be better than hip firing or ADS with a scope and ending up reading a label on a paint can on the self across the room.

All in all, though theres no real reason why canted irons wouldnt fit in the game, flip up magnifiers I understand not wanting them in the game. All this could be adressed with a PUBG aiming style, hold right click to tighten aim to your shoulder for a reasonable hip fire, or click right click to ADS, it would be lightweight and still be functional. After all these are trained PMCs and Insurgents, im sure these people dont scarface style hipfire...

@MAA_Bunny @HowardHughes

If the offset iron sight attachment cost the same as a basic secondary at 1 or 2 points, which isn't unreasonable at all, then it balances out pretty well. And electing not to take a secondary means you have no backup weapon when your primary runs dry.

Eeeh... No... Not really. A 9mm round is far less powerful than a 7.62x51 (or other) round. This has nothing in common. It would be greatly superior. Plus, a secondary weapon only has 4 magazines at best, whereas a primary can have up to 7 and can be fired in full auto. Totally unbalanced.

Whats delusion is thinking canted ironsights with alot of cons is the same as ARMOR PENETRATING ROUNDS. You are acting like this attachment would have no effect on your loadout cost and weight, implemented correctly, taking it would mean sacrificing something else.

The link between canted iron sights in sandstorm and AP rounds in Ins2 is that it's a no brainer attachment. You want it because you would constantly use it. Everybody would. Why ? Because it would be the most useful attachment in the game. Don't lie to me or even to yourself. You would always chose to have it. This would totally suppress the need for a side weapon and make you deadly both at short and long range. Why would anyone want to pass on such a huge advantage ? Especially if some players on the map have it and have that big of an advantage on those who don't ?

Plain weapons without any attachment are highly deadly in Sandstorm. Even if you only had that attachment and none of the others, it would still be worth it.

A canted iron you could switch to fast would be better than hip firing or ADS with a scope and ending up reading a label on a paint can on the self across the room.

Use fast holster, then. It's pretty quick and very useful. Only costs 1 supply point. Anticipate dangers. This is a tactical action game, this ain't no Call of Duty nor PUBG, so act accordingly.

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