Better Suppression/Suppressive Fire

Suppressive fire in this game is almost none existent.
It should be worked on not only to improve the game but at the same time allow the 'Machine gun' class do it's job successfully.

I think a great example to look at would be the suppressing fire mechanic within Tripwire's Red Orchestra series.
In this game, a player behind and aiming over cover while getting shot at from concentrated automatic fire will flinch making accurate shots much harder to take.

Currently it's far to easy to take out a player who is supposedly 'suppressing' you. More needs to be done.

Yes i support that proposal !
You made a good argument on the supressing fire technique of mashine guns.
Shooting supressive rounds on a spot where someone is hiding behind cover to keep their opponents head down is one important element of the MG´s.
While dozens of MG projectiles are flying around this guys head, he shouldn´t be rewarded by having enough time to get his head out of cover for taking a precise shot on the player who is doing supressive fire. His vision should at least be blurry from dust and particles of the hit region.

last edited by GSG_9_LIGHTNING

Less need to be done. Suppressive fire is, in essence, tactical missing. Suppressive fire is always a bad shot unless you don't have direct line of sight to the person you're suppressing (but then just wait for him to peek so you can kill him instead of scaring him). Consequently, any debuff applied by suppression will reward missed shots. The current mechanics already apply RNG sway to your gun after people miss you a couple of times. That alone is unacceptable; it's lowering the skill ceiling by adding more RNG to gunplay and lessening the punishment for missing. Gunfights then give an advantage to the player who clicks first rather than the player who aims better.

last edited by cyoce

I like the idea of OP, but the mechanics pointed out by Cyoce are true. We're all Pavlovian. We seek what is rewarded.

I would be SUPER down for if bots simply fired more. Like....maybe not as accurately, but a hell of a lot more. I wanna feel oppressed. haha

I like the OP idea. I also think @cyoce is right in his points, especially if thinking from the point of competitive play.

My answer is just speculation, but I'm gonna spit it out. I'm thinking from the perspective of push, I know suppression is not good for competitive game modes.

Suppression adds immersion for sure, which is something I'm looking for. It's awesome in this game when I'm getting shot at and shooting feels and sounds great! 🙂

I'm thinking if stronger suppression would put more emphasis on teamwork, when it's harder to solo? It might even slow the game down a bit (longer firefights, less mindless rushing while being debuffed by suppression). It could make ammo vest more important if you need more ammo to use suppression. I guess it's about where the devs want to take the game.

Suppression is not an aiming skill. It's a tactic. It's believable tactic (oh wait, it's an IRL tactic!) so I'm fine if the suppression mechanic in this game was stronger.

I still think push should have very different set of rules/features compared to competitive game modes considering suppression etc. What is optimal featureset/ruleset for 5v5 competitive game mode on a smaller map is not optimal for 16v16 immersive sustained combat on a big map.

I agree with OP. Suppression needs to be enhanced for the sake of realism. As of now firefights in this game feel a lot like in CS:GO or COD (meaning very short). Last time I checked this game was advertised as a tactical shooter and IMHO suppressive fire is a vital tactical area denial element. Similar to gunship run or chemical mortar strike etc. which don't only serve to kill enemies, but more importantly to force them to keep their heads down while your team can advance on an objective or simply get a better firing position.

Machine gun fire doesn't scare most players as it should. Most of the time if the gunner misses the enemy it only gives away his position and the person on the receiving end just fires back with no problem.

I absolutely love the realistic gunplay in this game, however some aspects make it feel like Counter-strike/Call of duty on steroides.

A very good example of suppression effect is done in Battlefield 2 mod Project reality, where while under fire your screen gets blurred to the point you can't return fire effectively, resulting in longer and more intense firefights.

@cyoce said in Better Suppression/Suppressive Fire:

Less need to be done. Suppressive fire is, in essence, tactical missing. Suppressive fire is always a bad shot unless you don't have direct line of sight to the person you're suppressing (but then just wait for him to peek so you can kill him instead of scaring him). Consequently, any debuff applied by suppression will reward missed shots. The current mechanics already apply RNG sway to your gun after people miss you a couple of times. That alone is unacceptable; it's lowering the skill ceiling by adding more RNG to gunplay and lessening the punishment for missing. Gunfights then give an advantage to the player who clicks first rather than the player who aims better.

I've got an idea.

Personally, I'm against the idea of "whoever shoots first wins" because it should be "whoever hits first wins". However, it would be kind of autistic to stand up while some guy with a deployed LMG is spraying at you and counter-snipe him with zero problems.

Weapons in Ins2014 caused suppression based on the caliber. For instance, pistols only caused 20 suppression but battle rifles would cause 70 per shot.

I'm 100% sure that mechanic exists in Sandstorm, but another possible feature could be a suppression cap. What I mean by that is, the type of weapon being fired at you determines how suppressed your character can actually be.

Pistols would cause little suppression and the game would cap the suppression rather quickly, so getting mag dumped by a guy who can't aim his handgun really wouldn't cause your character to freak out that much. However, getting shot at by an LMG would fuck your aim up really badly, and would probably require tactics or teamwork to counter effectively. Currently, bipod-ing an LMG is just asking for a bullet to the face. Sniper / Marksman rifles would cause pretty hefty suppression too (with the possible exception of the M14 EBR since it has select-fire).

Obviously, this change would also require LMGs to be nerfed to hell in CQB.

@marksmanmax said in Better Suppression/Suppressive Fire:

Currently, bipod-ing an LMG is just asking for a bullet to the face. Sniper / Marksman rifles would cause pretty hefty suppression too (with the possible exception of the M14 EBR since it has select-fire).

That's only asking for a bullet to the face if you're tactically missing or wallbanging and leaving a ton of tracers. If you use it as a sniper weapon it's quite effective.

@jensiii said in Better Suppression/Suppressive Fire:

I'm thinking if stronger suppression would put more emphasis on teamwork, when it's harder to solo? It might even slow the game down a bit (longer firefights, less mindless rushing while being debuffed by suppression). It could make ammo vest more important if you need more ammo to use suppression. I guess it's about where the devs want to take the game.

Suppression is not an aiming skill. It's a tactic. It's believable tactic (oh wait, it's an IRL tactic!) so I'm fine if the suppression mechanic in this game was stronger.

(below is a reply to both of you)

The problem with suppression is that I see very little tactical value to using it. No matter how many debuffs are applied, when you have line of sight to someone it will always be a better idea to try to shoot them. Which leaves suppression as something only to be used when someone is behind cover. This makes sense. However, if you have an angle on him, why do you want to give away your position and encourage him to stay behind cover? Nine times out of ten I'd rather hold my fire and wait for him to peek so I can put 5 in his head.

Bottom line, it would be really hard to make suppression more effective than waiting for a clean shot, and there's no way that mechanic would be conducive to any sort of skilled gunfight mechanics.

I like the way Insurency 2014 does suppression. It might have a slight effect on accuracy, but I've never noticed a difference. It applies a blur to your vision and makes your sound go wonky. This still applies a substantial dampener to your opponent's effectiveness, but doesn't remove their ability to out-aim you. Furthermore, the one shot lethality in Insurgency meant as soon as you got the suppression effect it was often best to drop to the ground or find cover because one stray bullet from that stream could put you down.

There is one important reason why you do supressive fire and give away your position to the enemy :

Giving your teammates a possibility to move forward ( during supressive fire ) towards the enemy which has been sighted and trying to flank and shoot him.
There is no risk free situation on a battlefield to move forward to another position.
There always might be other enemies hiding on other spots who might shoot the teammates who are trying to flank.
Supressive fire just reduces risk of getting shot from that specific sighted enemy.

Mashine Gunners main task is to give his teammates covering fire while they are moving as he has the biggest magazine.
Pulling some attention of the enemy forces on himself is part of it too. He might be targeted by Snipers and RPGs at any time.
As a mashine gunner you can do burst shots too to provide a longer time window for your advancing teammates and save some ammo while doing so.
In return a mashine gunner always needs at least one teammate ( better two ) who cover his own flanks and protect him while he is giving supressive fire in prone position to have maximum precision.
He also needs protection while reloading as this procedure takes much longer than regular rifle reloads.
We all know what happens when you have tunnel view and lose your situational awareness.

Teamplay is the key to success ! Not only in versus mode but also in coop games.
Most of the players don´t work as a squad protecting each other.
Most of the players don´t play their role as it´s meant to be.

Thats the big diffrence to real life situations.
You will never see people running around all the time ( because its exhausting )
They stick together and slowly advance

last edited by GSG_9_LIGHTNING

@cyoce said in Better Suppression/Suppressive Fire:

The problem with suppression is that I see very little tactical value to using it. No matter how many debuffs are applied, when you have line of sight to someone it will always be a better idea to try to shoot them. Which leaves suppression as something only to be used when someone is behind cover.

Yes, you are completely correct. If you have a shot on someone, shoot them. But, if someone has gone to ground behind solid cover sitting and waiting for them to pop out is a gamble. You might get them, sure, they might get you or a friend first. In real life, with real lives on the line, you don't take that chance.

The tactical value here goes waaaay back to Sun Tzu. Fix and flank. Use suppression to lock your enemy into a fixed position, while teammates move to a position to kill them. Suppression is used to deny your enemy the ability to maneuver, observe, and engage your forces. It's a very powerful tool and it's why every infantry squad has an LMG or two.

I like the way Insurency 2014 does suppression.

I agree, I liked the suppression mechanic in that game as well. I think the blurry effect does a better job at communicating the feeling of being suppressed than the weird over-saturation thing Sandstorm does.

last edited by MAA_Bunny

@cyoce

Well I don't see a problem with it, worked beautifully for the Tripwire series without any problems. 'Tactical missing' is a funny take on it I must say. 😁 'Missing' implies you are not hitting or have not hit your target, If your target is the location/cover of the enemy, it ain't a miss baby. 😉

@maa_bunny said in Better Suppression/Suppressive Fire:

I think the blurry effect does a better job at communicating the feeling of being suppressed than the weird over-saturation thing Sandstorm does.

Yeap! Same as in INS Source

@bullet59 said in Better Suppression/Suppressive Fire:

@maa_bunny said in Better Suppression/Suppressive Fire:

I think the blurry effect does a better job at communicating the feeling of being suppressed than the weird over-saturation thing Sandstorm does.

Yeap! Same as in INS Source

To be honest, it's pretty hard to tell if you're even being suppressed or not.

@sharpeyehodgey My main problem is with suppression in open gunfights. When the person is behind cover, suppression is more or less pointless. But when your target doesn't have cover, it would be stupid to choose to suppress him rather than shoot him. This means that any suppression effects in a gunfight are an accidental byproduct of missing. Players shouldn't be rewarded for missing their shots. If you want to apply a debuff on the enemy player that will make it harder for them to return fire, the "dead" status effect completely disables all of their weapons and movement options.

@cyoce said in Better Suppression/Suppressive Fire:

When the person is behind cover, suppression is more or less pointless.

Did you read anything I wrote above?

Suppression is used to deny your enemy the ability to maneuver, observe, and engage your forces.

If you think that's pointless ... I don't know what to tell you ...

@maa_bunny You know what else prevents an enemy from maneuvering, observing, or engaging your forces? Killing them. If you suppress someone, it doesn't keep them from moving. It just lets them know that if they repeek the same angle they will die. There's nothing stopping someone to run around the other side and kill your teammate while suppressed. The debuff doesn't last long enough to affect the gunfight with a teammate from a different angle.

last edited by cyoce

@cyoce Yes, suppression is used when cover prevents you from killing the person.

The best possible fighting positions offer cover from enemy fire, concealment from enemy observation, and clear lines to observe and fire at the enemy. If you encounter an enemy in such a position and are unable to immediately kill them, the best choice is to remove as many benefits of that position as you can. Suppressive fire is one way to do this. If it makes your enemy cower in his position, great, maneuver into a superior position and kill him. If it makes the enemy vacate the position, great, kill him on the move or if he makes it to a new position start over from step one. This is how gunfights are won in real life with as little risk as possible. If you've never been on a receiving end of this style of combat before, trust me, it's terrifying and effective.

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