Gunship kills through buildings

I got killed by the gunship (not even by the rockets, by the 30mm cannon) but I was in a building, this should not be possible.

@zayzek I mean, it does fire 30mm HE, so I'd assume it's pretty doable. Just stay away from windows or any outer walls, even.

Rocket barrages can kill you through buildings, as well, if you're too close to the impact.

Realistically: sure, both the 30mm cannon and rockets will totally penetrate nearly any building in the game. Targeting a person in a building would be a lot more difficult though.

Gameplay: it's annoying not knowing if you're someplace safe from a gunship. The paradigm of inside = safe, outside = danger is simple and easy to understand. Right now I can't tell if there's some kind of wall thickness calculation going on to determine if I die or it's just a bug. There doesn't seem to be a lot of consistency. When the player can't understand the mechanic killing them, it's a gameplay problem.

I mean 30mm will go though most things like butter. But for the sake of gameplay its a bit stupid.

@zayzek said in Gunship kills through buildings:

I got killed by the gunship (not even by the rockets, by the 30mm cannon) but I was in a building, this should not be possible.

You'd be dead even if the round hit next to you. That's how lethal those cannons are. Remember they penetrate armored vehicles. Hell you could tear a building down with that shit.
Don't fuck with america lol

@maa_bunny said in Gunship kills through buildings:

Realistically: sure, both the 30mm cannon and rockets will totally penetrate nearly any building in the game. Targeting a person in a building would be a lot more difficult though.

Gameplay: it's annoying not knowing if you're someplace safe from a gunship. The paradigm of inside = safe, outside = danger is simple and easy to understand. Right now I can't tell if there's some kind of wall thickness calculation going on to determine if I die or it's just a bug. There doesn't seem to be a lot of consistency. When the player can't understand the mechanic killing them, it's a gameplay problem.

Agreed, +1

@sgt-kanyo said in Gunship kills through buildings:

@zayzek said in Gunship kills through buildings:

I got killed by the gunship (not even by the rockets, by the 30mm cannon) but I was in a building, this should not be possible.

You'd be dead even if the round hit next to you. That's how lethal those cannons are. Remember they penetrate armored vehicles. Hell you could tear a building down with that shit.
Don't fuck with america lol

Yeah, realistically, but at the end of the day gameplay is more important lmao.

@marksmanmax said in Gunship kills through buildings:

@sgt-kanyo said in Gunship kills through buildings:

@zayzek said in Gunship kills through buildings:

I got killed by the gunship (not even by the rockets, by the 30mm cannon) but I was in a building, this should not be possible.

You'd be dead even if the round hit next to you. That's how lethal those cannons are. Remember they penetrate armored vehicles. Hell you could tear a building down with that shit.
Don't fuck with america lol

Yeah, realistically, but at the end of the day gameplay is more important lmao.

Absolutely agreed. Gameplay is the most important. Meaning realism needs to be #1 priority.
Just because you use absolutely no common sense and don't enjoy games like these, that doesn't mean noone else enjoys realism.
There are plenty of other sponge bullet games on the market, so why not play that?

@sgt-kanyo Insurgency is not a milsim. There are plenty of other milsim games on the market, so why not play that?

While it may be realistic, it's not good gameplay to instantly die through cover by something that takes no skill to call in.

last edited by cyoce

@sgt-kanyo If we're going to be 100% concerned with realism, how does an Apache know where I am in a building?

Also explosive arty support has this same problem. Sometimes I'm safe in buildings, sometimes I get blown up. Sometimes is obvious a round landed right outside a door or window in line of sight to me, ok, I'm fine with that, but sometimes I'm surrounded by solid walls and still die. In real life, sure, 155mm arty will tear a lot of buildings apart and kill people inside. But we don't see that happen. There's no visual cues that shrapnel is coming through the wall, the walls don't collapse or get riddled with holes. You just die and are left wondering what the hell just happened.

It's a problem and an annoyance when you don't know if you're safe or not when you're hiding in a building, I see it happening all the time to both new and high level players ... it's not a good thing when getting killed this way starts to feel somewhat random.

@sgt-kanyo said in Gunship kills through buildings:

Absolutely agreed. Gameplay is the most important. Meaning realism needs to be #1 priority.

-> States that gameplay is the most important factor for overall balance
-> States that realism is priority #1 (So, Realism > Balance)

"Chief just called, and uhh. this ain't it."

last edited by MarksmanMax

@maa_bunny said in Gunship kills through buildings:

@sgt-kanyo If we're going to be 100% concerned with realism, how does an Apache know where I am in a building?

Also explosive arty support has this same problem. Sometimes I'm safe in buildings, sometimes I get blown up. Sometimes is obvious a round landed right outside a door or window in line of sight to me, ok, I'm fine with that, but sometimes I'm surrounded by solid walls and still die. In real life, sure, 155mm arty will tear a lot of buildings apart and kill people inside. But we don't see that happen. There's no visual cues that shrapnel is coming through the wall, the walls don't collapse or get riddled with holes. You just die and are left wondering what the hell just happened.

FLIR heat camera. Sometimes you can see people's heat signature's through the building, but I do agree, Apaches shouldn't ALWAYS be able to see you, that'd be moronic. However a 30mm cannon or Artillery or any other ornaments that are more powerful then a .50 cal (hell a .50 cal goes through walls easily), should kill you instantly.
I understand the building would need to collapse, but to compensate for that, the devs could for example create a more immense dirt effect coming off the wall, with a subtle explosion indoors indicating that a round came through the building, killing you.

@cyoce
Name me one milsim with the ability to play COOP with your friends.
ARMA III would be a nice milsim, yet it doesn't use real weapons and overall it's boring. There'd be plenty of opportunity to make it nice, but they didn't so they failed with that game imo.
SQUAD is a nice game from the videos I've seen, but it doesn't have bots. It's purely PvP.

@sgt-kanyo It's unfortunate that there isn't a co-op milsim you like. There still won't be one when Sandstorm releases, because it's not a milsim.

last edited by cyoce

@cyoce said in Gunship kills through buildings:

@sgt-kanyo It's unfortunate that there isn't a co-op milsim you like. There still won't be one when Sandstorm releases, because it's not a milsim.

So what you're saying here is, if a game does not represent reality 100%, then it should not represent reality at all.
Hell if that's the case I'd rather ride a T-Rex armed with a gatling gun on it's two sides to battle, because that's a lot cooler than some old ass Toyota with a cold war era gun attached to it.

@sgt-kanyo said in Gunship kills through buildings:

@cyoce said in Gunship kills through buildings:

@sgt-kanyo It's unfortunate that there isn't a co-op milsim you like. There still won't be one when Sandstorm releases, because it's not a milsim.

So what you're saying here is, if a game does not represent reality 100%, then it should not represent reality at all.'

Nice false dichotomy argument here. Surely a game can't be a mixture of arcade and simulation?

That's the literal definition of Insurgency at its core. What @cyoce is saying is that Insurgency: Sandstorm is not a war simulator.

Hell if that's the case I'd rather ride a T-Rex armed with a gatling gun on it's two sides to battle, because that's a lot cooler than some old ass Toyota with a cold war era gun attached to it.

Go play Paraworld, then.

@sgt-kanyo said in Gunship kills through buildings:

FLIR heat camera.

Point a FLIR at a wall and you'll see what temperature the wall is. That's it. Using thermal imaging to see through buildings is total Hollywood myth.

Realism is great and I like it, in part because I just can't turn off the part of my brain that says "I've done this before, and that's totally not how that really works." But at the end of the day, it's a game, and it needs to be fun. Shooting and killing people in real life isn't my idea of fun, so even on fundamental premise the game needs to be at least somewhat detached from reality. It's basically the digital equivalent to playing airsoft.

@sgt-kanyo All I'm saying is that Insurgency is not a milsim. That doesn't mean it can't be realistic. What it does mean, however, is that sometimes realism has to be sacrificed for better gameplay.

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