Does anyone else think that time to kill is a little high compared to original Insurgency?

I put four bullets in someone’s back with an AKS-74U, started walking away before seeing him turn around and shoot me. Anyone have similar experiences? It could have been my connection made some of the shots miss (the internet was a little iffy that day), but it definitely seemed like the kind of thing that would kill in the last game.

Last time I looked this isn't the"last game"

This is Sandstorm which is the evolution of the game

I find the ttk to be fine

Yes. The gunplay in Sandstorm is total crap and should not have Insurgency in it's name if it's to be a sequel.

Just ignore the TTK people. If you make a single mention of "TTK" anywhere on these forums the same 4 people come in and shout down everyone who thinks the current TTK is fine, because they want everything to be 1 hit kills.... Slazenger is one of them, and more will come. They practically start to salivate every time they see those 3 letters together.

We've been over this.

When this inevitably happens, I suggest a mod locks it up. These discussions are never productive.

last edited by AMURKA

TTK is fine. Just try it in Insurgency 2 without AP ammo, and you'l see you often need more than 3 bullets to kill.
People don't know that, because people only play with AP ammo. They always choose to sacrifice something to take those. That's exactly why devs removed this kind of ammo from Sandstorm. It was a no brainer choice, and nobody can remember how Insurgency felt without AP one shot kills now. Kinda broke the game, tbh. It was the ultimate meta.

Some weapons have high penetration and damage. You can focus on them, if you want lower TTK. The AKS-74U is a submachine gun that has low recoil. As a breacher or advisor, you have either shotguns or Alpha AK to kill players/AI quicker. Shotguns will take time to reload but usually kill in one shot, and Alpha AK has a much lower TTK than the AKS-74U, but higher recoil.

@amurka Just ignore the core features of Insurgency. Yeah great idea. Rearing for success aye.
Here's a screenshot of the server browser at 10:16pm peak time.
0_1543223898689_Untitled.png

@slazenger I don't think 1 hit kills are the core feature of insurgency.
Plus I really think devs want this game to be successful. At least more successful then insurgency source.
Your screenshot shows that not many people play the original game right now which is basically a bad thing

@slazenger game is not released yet. If the server browser looks like that after release... well that's another case.

For me the current TTK is much more satisfying than it was in the INS2. I don't think I've ever needed 4 hits to take down anyone, 2-3 at most.

last edited by jensiii

Totally agree with the OP, I find it really worrysome that the same 5-ish people defend high TTK despite that the gunplay is just an outright downgrade from Ins2014/DoI. There's just no lethality at all. SS is clearly going down the road of attempting to be "competitive" at the cost of being the immersion shooter its prequel was.

I've survived 6 hits wearing light armour this patch. 4 from various enemy weapons and two from a friendly G3. I have no fear of death. I do dumb shit and don't get punished for it. I don't play this game with any caution or fear. Even the suppression effects don't hinder me.

SS competitive will fail spectacularly. People who want a competitive game play competitive games. R6/CS/etc. The maps in SS guarantee this will never be a reality as they're unbalanced, huge and are not designed with lanes.

The maps are great for an immersion shooter. Ins2014 was 70% populated by coop players and SS clearly is too. Only the vocal minority want to push this "competitive" water gun shooter on the core players. It's such a shame they're succeeding.

Oh boy, here we go again...

The current TTK is basically good for casuals and new players. In the old Insurgency, a good player with superior reactions and aim could dominate a server. And that is how it should be, in my opinion. Pure skill should always be rewarded.

Here are my two cents. I feel like TTK should be reduced a bit, but armor needs to play an integral role. Otherwise, it's useless to equip any sort of armor if it doesn't affect survivability. Maybe it'll make more sense when they add in ammo types? The TTK may drop with AP ammo, assuming it's in the works. However, the TTK isn't my main issue with the game. Optimization is.

@thatmusicwriter

@thatmusicwriter said in Does anyone else think that time to kill is a little high compared to original Insurgency?:

started walking away before seeing him turn around and shoot me

Don't turn around on a target that is not confirmed dead - always make sure enemies are dead, TTK is extremely low in both games - It is okey to have a preference for both a high and low ttk, as it is a matter of preference, nothing more, nothing less. Game is still tactical and it is very doable to dominate, a lot of veterans have no problem whatsoever with the new ttk, a million posts have been written on this topic already, so please look at those before repeating what has been discussed thoroughly.

@whitby said in Does anyone else think that time to kill is a little high compared to original Insurgency?:

SS competitive will fail spectacularly. People who want a competitive game play competitive games. R6/CS/etc. The maps in SS guarantee this will never be a reality as they're unbalanced, huge and are not designed with lanes.

This is simply not true. You do not speak on behalf of all people enjoying pvp, as this is not the case for many of us. Have you seen my thread on security issues? Anyone with insight would know cs competitive is a joke as the game is flooded with cheaters, there is videos of ppl cheating all up to global elite constantly updated on youtube, look it up yourself. Any game with pvp can be competitive, this is subjective.

The maps are great for an immersion shooter. Ins2014 was 70% populated by coop players and SS clearly is too. Only the vocal minority want to push this "competitive" water gun shooter on the core players. It's such a shame they're succeeding.

"core players" what are you talking about, many ppl enjoyed pvp as well last game, everyone on a small forum like this is a vocal minority and everyone with a copy of the game has a valid voice, and the game can be both coop and pvp this is not contradicting. If you don't like the ttk, this is fine, I constantly defend the ttk, but do you understand why? Because I see that the ttk is still extremely low and I have absolutely no problem getting kills in pvp - And ppl who argue against current ttk because it is too difficult to kill the enemies needs more practice as there is already hundreds of hours of gameplay footage all over the internet proving that it is fast to get a kill with good skills.

Just to be clear, I also liked the ttk in the previous game - But this is a preference, not because of some logical gamebreaking reason that some people claim it to be, therefore I don't make up reasons a lower ttk was very important compared to current ttk, simply because that would be untrue.

EDIT: Yes, the higher ttk has resulted in small changes, but they are quite small..

EDIT2: unbalanced, huge and are not designed with lanes means a change of tactic, not unsuited for pvp - If there is strong unbalance due to map layout for each team, the developers will probably put in some work in trying to fix some of this as they did in the previous game, perfect balance is unrealistic without very specific map layouts - Both sides will normally come up with tactics in time that will balance some of this out - If this is not the case now, it still does not mean ppl can't find some good tactics in time.

last edited by Pacalis

@pacalis said in Does anyone else think that time to kill is a little high compared to original Insurgency?:

This is simply not true. You do not speak on behalf of all people enjoying pvp, as this is not the case for many of us. Have you seen my thread on security issues? Anyone with insight would know cs competitive is a joke as the game is flooded with cheaters, there is videos of ppl cheating all up to global elite constantly updated on youtube, look it up yourself. Any game with pvp can be competitive, this is subjective.

I didn't claim to speak on behalf of anybody enjoying PvP. My statement is that this "competitive" nonsense being pushed will fail. Which it will. How many people are sweating it out playing ranked at the time you're reading this? 10? 0? What percentage of the people currently ingame are playing in one of those sweaty 5v5's? 0%? 1%? Ins2014 PvP might not have been as well "balanced" as R6 or CS because the effectiveness of all guns was so high, but it was still great fun. It just wasn't "competitive" in the sense that R6/CS is, which is the direction they've gone with the TTK. That, and opening the game up for casuals. These changes have damaged the experience of people who play the game for teamwork/immersion.

@pacalis said in Does anyone else think that time to kill is a little high compared to original Insurgency?:

"core players" what are you talking about, many ppl enjoyed pvp as well last game, everyone on a small forum like this is a vocal minority and everyone with a copy of the game has a valid voice, and the game can be both coop and pvp this is not contradicting. If you don't like the ttk, this is fine, I constantly defend the ttk, but do you understand why? Because I see that the ttk is still extremely low and I have absolutely no problem getting kills in pvp - And ppl who argue against current ttk because it is too difficult to kill the enemies needs more practice as there is already hundreds of hours of gameplay footage all over the internet proving that it is fast to get a kill with good skills.

Core players is referring to the existing playerbase NWI already has. These players play cooperative gamemodes by majority. The PvP scene exists and represents about 1/3rd-ish of what NWI's players are playing. The "competitive" scene at any given time is negligible and with the new maps is going to get smaller, not bigger.

Currently the "competitive" PvP changes have reduced the fun of the coop. Casualising the gunplay and making everything but the FAL and M14 water guns has downgraded the coop experience specifically in an attempt to be competitive enough to be an esport and make easy money.

Implying my problem is that I cannot get kills due to lack of skills is ludicrous. It works both ways. Please reread my post where I provided an anecdote regarding being a bullet sponge:

@whitby said in Does anyone else think that time to kill is a little high compared to original Insurgency?:

I've survived 6 hits wearing light armour this patch. 4 from various enemy weapons and two from a friendly G3. I have no fear of death. I do dumb shit and don't get punished for it. I don't play this game with any caution or fear. Even the suppression effects don't hinder me.

last edited by Whitby

@Whitby
If ppl are not playing competitive atm it may be because of performance issues as game still is not working too well for many, this is why I dont pvp atm. The moment you claim ppl who want a competitive game plays this or that game you are speaking on behalf of competitive players no?

You may be right the competitive aspect will fail, but this is not a certainty, and it must also be evaluated against some target number. I believe there will be more sold copies of this game and that it may have a chance of flourishing in time, after all as long as the game sell enough to generate a profit it is a success. I have no illusion about the motivation of any game developers, they want to make money of course, who would not? This motivation going at the expense of quality will always be the case to some extent, which game has not done so. Still NWI has proved to be a developer who cares about quality in their games, and want the game to be successful, finding the perfect recipe is a goal they all mostly strive for as it gives a game good reputation, so its not all cynical.

I have also tried out the pve in this game and finished several maps solo with different guns, so it is not that bad, and I have heard several ppl in this forum saying the coop experience is enjoyable.

I saw your example the first time around, and there will always be cases of this, but this is not your standard experience when someone shots at you no? If I shot at you, you will not shake it off, that is a promise valid in the most cases. This is not ludicrous, how would you explain all the countless videos on youtube showing quick kills in such a scenario?

30% of the playerbase is normally not negligible for most developers with any ambition, and I find it hard to believe the playerbase will be smaller in this game if stuttering is resolved.

EDIT: You say yourself "I do dumb shit and don't get punished for it." These are your words, and skilled players will punish you for it. The weapons have the potential to punish you in any case, and from videos I have seen there is a fair amount of casuals playing the game, so you can not use this as the standard if your examples applies to engaging casuals.

EDIT2: I do not say you lack skills personally, I am speaking of ppl in general, I don't know you and would have no business pretending to understand all about your playstyle. Maybe you have had some weird experiences, maybe you are a very skilled player, maybe you would not complain about high ttk if you had a lot of experience, these are just my assumptions.

EDIT3: I have played coop as much as the top 10% of ppl playing coop in the last game and also love the coop part of the game and hope by all means this will be enjoyable for most players as I have found Insurgency to be very unique in fun pve. That being said, I am a gamer who enjoys extreme difficulty, so I can finish maps in previous games on brutal solo, and mostly played modded servers like BeF2 to get an enjoyable challenge, so it is hard for me to judge how the common experience is. For me it is a great satisfaction when I have problems finishing a game, because it then keeps being interesting for me=)

last edited by Pacalis

@pacalis

Maybe. But maybe it's also because the map designs don't lend themselves remotely to 5v5 competitive play and NWI's audience never has been particularly big on competitive play either. If you wanted to play competitively, you'd play Ins2014 just for the maps. But of course, if you wanted to play competitively, you'd play something else.

This game will certainly sell copies. The quality of the gameplay has decreased since Ins2014 and DoI as the gunfights are not what they used to be. NWI want to make it big with competitive streamers and such, at least we agree there's no illusion there. Perhaps you need to look at the level design before you state that failure to succeed at this endeavour isn't a certainty.

The coop experience is enjoyable. However, the gunplay is less enjoyable than it was in Ins2014 and DoI. Your personal capability to "finish" a map in coop doesn't change this.

Standard experience is absolutely that you get shot and shake it off. SKS/AKM takes 2-3 hits to kill somebody. MK18 takes 2-3 hits. M16 takes 2-3 hits although usually 2. G3 takes 1-2 hits. Unless you get shot in the head, if you even have light armour on you're going to shrug it off. If you get shot in the shoulder in real life you get medevac'd, you don't shrug it off because you had a SAPI covering your torso. It's unrealistic to a frustrating degree when facing numerous opponents. It's not the harrowing scary experience to be shot at which it was in the previous games either.

I didn't state 30% of the playerbase was negligible. I'll assume English isn't your first language - what is negligible is the "competitive" crowd as they are simply not there or represent less than 1% of the audience. The multiplayer crowd isn't negligible and thrived just fine in Ins2014 with the low TTK.

Re first edit: Not really due to skilled players not representing a majority of people you engage, and in coop not at all due to lack of humans on the opposing side to chain multiple hits on me in quick succession at midrange. You can still get away with plenty of dumb shit.

Re second edit: I didn't say you said I lacked skills. I said you implied it. This I stand by. Maybe I am a skilled player who dislikes the high TTK, but interestingly the second time around, isn't how you chose to construct your sentence.

Re third edit: I run my own server with twice the AI and half the players. At least we have something in common.

last edited by Whitby

@whitby @pacalis I would like to add I use the M16 very often and very often people do not die from the first three round burst and (sometimes) die somewhere in the second three round burst. This is usually at point blank range and all three bullets hit. That being said in those instances I’m usually aiming centre mass and maybe all three bullets hit their armour provided they are wearing heavy armour? (don’t always notice) but regardless they definitely shrug off that first three round burst and often kill me before I get the second three round burst off. That’s putting the M16 in the 4-6 bullets to kill range (sometimes) I do kill people with the first three rounds often enough as well. Just wanted to add this in there. 😘

@Whitby

I also liked the smaller maps in ins14 and have played that game many hours after having access to this in pvp. I have obviously seen the level design when soloing several maps, but I also have hundreds of hours in games like Rising Storm 2:Vietnam which also has very chaotic level design without stopping it from being pvp friendly/competitive.

English is my second language, but I have had top grades in English, an English girlfriend, lived in an English speaking country, and speaks English at work in most cases, but when you say "pvp scene" I automatically assume this is also the competitive scene, but you just clarified that you talk about the one percent, so we spoke about different definitions-> Also in my reality, the 1% competitive scene, where I guess you talk about "pro" players and streamers is for a big part an illusion from my point of view - So this segment of the playerbase is not interesting from my point of view in any case - Most customers can't spend that amount of time on any game, and there is a lot of cheating from home-based computers, thus removing any valid competition in that regard (hence my choice of using the word illusion).

I also do "dumb shit" or high risk/high reward gameplays as I would call it, but a casual playerbase does not remove any potential within the game mechanics from my point of view - It has just not been tapped into properly, you could get away with a high amount of carelessness in the last game as well in my experience, it depends on what kind of situation you are describing here.

When you explain the amounts of shots it takes to kill an opponent I do get confused as it is not clear to me why such a low amount of shots to kill means anything else than a reasonably low ttk?

EDIT: I have written a thread on the cheating problem called security issues if you are interested. In that thread I prove that at least 1.6% of players in PUBG are cheaters, though the developers themselves have put the number higher. In light of that you could yourself do the math on what ppl are represented across the scoreboards:)

EDIT2: Realism is something a lot of gamers argue about, what they all have in common from my point of view, is that they don't really want more realism - As real warfare is tedious: I have posts on the topic if you want a longer explanation. What you say about wounded soldiers is also very accurate - As you explain you additionally passify at least two more healthy soldiers to get the wounded to safety and being taken care of. (med evac)

last edited by Pacalis

I believe a lower TTK would lower the skillcap and a one too high could too.
TTK was lower on the previous one because there was an unhealthy meta with AP ammo.
I think it's fine as it is, most weapons kill in 3 shots max, sure there could be further weapon balancing.
You don't want every weapon to one tap, you want to have heavy armor actually viable, and you want players that can control a precise spray, not a dirty spray and pray that a random single bullet kill your opponent.

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