necron issues and breaking of lore... why did you ruin them?
  • so necrons didnt get a damage boost like suggested
  • we talked about how they where too fragile so you made them less tanky and heal less
  • turned the star pulse from a general purpose all round escort killer and ordnance clearer into their only worthwhile weapon
  • they dont phase out anymore, please refer me to any novel where necrons insubordinate
  • their warp out has a timer instead of being instant, again, have you read lore?
  • their call to arms is still just call to arms, its not as if they have warp portals that can teleport new units in from across the galaxy and the crew thats already there gets up after complete dismemberment
    necrons having call to arms is as sensible as imperials having spawning pools... tho thats a general complaint because imperial have spawning pools
  • worthless overpriced escorts, these things that cost 50+ lose in a gunfight at max range against a 20pts ork piece of trash, how did you come to these calculations? why didnt you listen to us pointing out an obvious requirement for damage increase
  • and they till cant decide facing when jumping 0_1544263158963_20181208105805_1.jpg eventho tooltip has been like this since the beginning of time and the skill should actually represent that because that would make it usefull

necrons are in a very sad state right now
they should be almost impossible to kill, your only hope bursting them down like a madman so you can force them to phase out
thats how necrons are
nobody has ever slaughtered necrons to the last in lore
read a fucking book and base the game around it dammit
these fragile solarpuls only shits have no correlation to necrons at all
in lore they kill ships with lightning mecros, never was there ever mention in lore about a pulse wrecking a fleet except a fleet of incoming bombers, but nobody is going to use pulse for bombers anymore
and they dont need to anyway because bomber behavior is moronic, spinning in circles until they get shot down instead of going directly for the target and then getting out as fast as possible
its supposed to be interceptors going after bombers not bombers diverting their run to go after interceptors

why is it constantly getting worse 😞

Actually, there was ONE case of a pulse clearing a Fleet, in hellforged, but that was described as a “Gauss pulse” (though it sounded like a starburst) and didn’t kill the whole fleet. I agree on everything else though, Necrons suck at the moment unless you pulse the enemy to death (which I have been told is getting patched).

just wanted to make a thread called fixing necrons. gonna use your whine* thread instead. 😛

*no offence meant, I feel the same.

they are in a very bad spot atm, I don't think there is one build that is not trash tier and I expect even the SP crowd will complain about them in the campaign, so how to fix them?

give us robo-zombies with extremly fast and maneuverable ships that JUST WONT DIE.

  1. tankyness / regneration

shields are great, they regenerate several times in a battle, they keep you safe from crits and all shields reload regardless of overall strength in the same time period.

the same scaling is needed for the hull regeneration. give them something like 0,25-0,4% hull regeneration per second and no healing cap (maybe with some adjustment for ship class/point cost). tie the regeneration to the crew level, so if you get them to yellow/red they regenerate slower. such a reg rate, would mean, that a cairn can more or less tank one BS firing at it. you would need several ships of the same weight class to bring one necron ship down. no more whittling down a cairn with just some escorts.

or if you insist on keeping the cap, give them something crazy like 1% reg per second and double the cap to at least 100% heal so that it matters to have healing. that would still look bad compared to any BS with shield armor.

necrons don't have braced. that makes them extremly vulnerable to lances, ramming and brawling in general (all imp ships have better damage reduction even against non AP-weapons than necrons if braced. give them a new trait for free or as part of a stance to have a minimum of 45% damage reduction against all armor piercing weapons.

let them slowly passive regen troops and turrets like their temp crit repair and give them immunity to perm crits. reintroduce the phase out if morale is broken.

  1. mobility

"all ahead full" is so much better. you can double your speed for 25sec with no CD if you manage your gauge. reduce the inertialess drive CD down to 45-60sec and either tie the range or tie the CD to the ship speed. if you don't add manual facing, increase the turn rate for all necron ships one tier down the ship classes (BS with CR turn rate, CR with LCr turn rate etc.). the drive is vital to avoid getting rammed to death. a braced ship with armoured prow trades up damage wise with necrons

  1. dps

nerf the star pulse hard, keep the overall dps the same. they have bad dps for their point cost as a trade off for their perks.

all these changes would make it an effort to take out their high priced ships. their damage output will be better, because they can stay longer in the fight and you have alternative options like boarding or morale breaking, if you don't have the raw fleet dps to get through their regeneration.

last edited by Fosil

@fosil said in necron issues and breaking of lore... why did you ruin them?:

just wanted to make a thread called fixing necrons. gonna use your whine* thread instead. 😛

*no offence meant, I feel the same.

they are in a very bad spot atm, I don't think there is one build that is not trash tier and I expect even the SP crowd will complain about them in the campaign, so how to fix them?

give us robo-zombies with extremly fast and maneuverable ships that JUST WONT DIE.

  1. tankyness / regneration

shields are great, they regenerate several times in a battle, they keep you safe from crits and all shields reload regardless of overall strength in the same time period.

the same scaling is needed for the hull regeneration. give them something like 0,25-0,4% hull regeneration per second and no healing cap (maybe with some adjustment for ship class/point cost). tie the regeneration to the crew level, so if you get them to yellow/red they regenerate slower. such a reg rate, would mean, that a cairn can more or less tank one BS firing at it. you would need several ships of the same weight class to bring one necron ship down. no more whittling down a cairn with just some escorts.

or if you insist on keeping the cap, give them something crazy like 1% reg per second and double the cap to at least 100% heal so that it matters to have healing. that would still look bad compared to any BS with shield armor.

necrons don't have braced. that makes them extremly vulnerable to lances, ramming and brawling in general (all imp ships have better damage reduction even against non AP-weapons than necrons if braced. give them a new trait for free or as part of a stance to have a minimum of 45% damage reduction against all armor piercing weapons.

let them slowly passive regen troops and turrets like their temp crit repair and give them immunity to perm crits. reintroduce the phase out if morale is broken.

  1. mobility

"all ahead full" is so much better. you can double your speed for 25sec with no CD if you manage your gauge. reduce the inertialess drive CD down to 45-60sec and either tie the range or tie the CD to the ship speed. if you don't add manual facing, increase the turn rate for all necron ships one tier down the ship classes (BS with CR turn rate, CR with LCr turn rate etc.). the drive is vital to avoid getting rammed to death. a braced ship with armoured prow trades up damage wise with necrons

  1. dps

nerf the star pulse hard, keep the overall dps the same. they have bad dps for their point cost as a trade off for their perks.

all these changes would make it an effort to take out their high priced ships. their damage output will be better, because they can stay longer in the fight and you have alternative options like boarding or morale breaking, if you don't have the raw fleet dps to get through their regeneration.

I’m not sure if tying Regen to crew is a good idea given how easy it is to depopulate ships, especially Necron ships. And by DPS do you mean keep it the same as it is currently with starpulses or keep the current damage of guns the same? Because the latter is way to low. I’m not that good at balancing things, I can only notice when they need it, but with 20pt vessels beating 50point ones (never mind that 1v1 Necrons should beat everything) means something is amiss.

🤔 cairn has 63 crew on board and he did suggest crew regen
he is also suggesting no perma crits so it would mean killing crew does absolutely nothing to necrons
so would be atleast something that troops influence
i wouldnt mind crew regen, nids should have something similar so they can trade in the horrible spawning pool renamed call to arms for something sensible

still think necrons should be balanced around phase out
make them terrifying, but make it possible for their self preservation to win the match
a batte vs necrons should be a battle vs morale
keeping your fleets balls attached to their body for long enough to make the necron lose them, thats what a necron battle should feel like

@Ashardalon perma crits would give you temp crits instead, which stay for a minute(?) and you will have the firing rate debuff too. (edit for ashardalon: skill CD too 😃 )

I want to avoid a situation where there is only one way to deal with necrons and you have it either too hard or too easy to deal with them, because your build has more or less problems with inflicting morale damage.

@Nemesor-Xanxas I was thinking about suggesting lowering crew damage inflicted by boarding assaults (not lightning strike, assault craft or other stuff) for one point for every three remaining turrets on a ship, so that you want to soften up a target like a BS before you can empty it out, similar how you need to take out shields to lightning strike a target. but that would be part of a package of proposals to improve boarding and ordnance in general (making it more rewarding, if you can pull it off etc., less hard-counter vs hard-counter).

about dps: I meant weapon dps, excluding skills like the pulse. I want to avoid buffing them too much.

last edited by Fosil

😠 dont talk as if the '"firerate debuff" means anything
its irrelevant and pathetic
but i have ranted enough about how crew is meaningless in other places so ill hold back this time
but expect a wall of rant next time you try and reference the "fire ratedebuff" as something significant

@ashardalon said in necron issues and breaking of lore... why did you ruin them?:

😠 dont talk as if the '"firerate debuff" means anything
its irrelevant and pathetic
but i have ranted enough about how crew is meaningless in other places so ill hold back this time
but expect a wall of rant next time you try and reference the "fire ratedebuff" as something significant

never 👏 forget 👏🏻 time👏🏼 to👏🏽 kill 👏🏾 TTK! 💪🏿

@fosil because 2 seconds, if you are lucky, is relevant

@fosil said in necron issues and breaking of lore... why did you ruin them?:

@Ashardalon perma crits would give you temp crits instead, which stay for a minute(?) and you will have the firing rate debuff too. (edit for ashardalon: skill CD too 😃 )

I want to avoid a situation where there is only one way to deal with necrons and you have it either too hard or too easy to deal with them, because your build has more or less problems with inflicting morale damage.

@Nemesor-Xanxas I was thinking about suggesting lowering crew damage inflicted by boarding assaults (not lightning strike, assault craft or other stuff) for one point for every three remaining turrets on a ship, so that you want to soften up a target like a BS before you can empty it out, similar how you need to take out shields to lightning strike a target. but that would be part of a package of proposals to improve boarding and ordnance in general (making it more rewarding, if you can pull it off etc., less hard-counter vs hard-counter).

about dps: I meant weapon dps, excluding skills like the pulse. I want to avoid buffing them too much.

If you keep dps as is and remove starpulse killing anything will be a challenge. The boarding suggestions sound like a good idea though.

Thing is they cant make the necrons like they are on the lore or on the table top. Because noone will have fun whatever they play as or against Necrons. They would be to stupidly overpowered...

Will concede that they need some work though

@demoulius said in necron issues and breaking of lore... why did you ruin them?:

Thing is they cant make the necrons like they are on the lore or on the table top. Because noone will have fun whatever they play as or against Necrons. They would be to stupidly overpowered...

Clicks Necron at Race Selection.

Gets the victory splash screen.

i agree from the private beta, they seemed to have gotten a mild nerf from then to now. and even then in the private beta they had a better tankyness rating then they do now.

Gameplay & Balance > Lore.
If you want Lore, go read a book.

"they should be almost impossible to kill,"

Because that sounds like a great thing for a multiplayer game.... 🙄

Not saying their current implementation is perfect, but using lore as your primary argument point is ridiculous. The game needs to be fun and balanced above any lore requirements.

@xviper
they should have phase out back
thats how you should beat them

They just aren't very good for their points right now. Lets take the baseline cruiser, the scythe harvester, and compare it to say, the apocalypse class battleship. Why that battleship? Because it is actually 14 points cheaper than the necron cruiser. So if this cruiser is more expensive than an imperial battleship than it must be at least equivalent right? Well...
Lets compare, I'll even throw in the common retribution class for extra evidence (7pts more than the cruiser):
Apocalypse Scythe Retribution
HP: 2.4k 1.6K 2.4K
Shields: 800 0 800
Total HP: 3.2k 1.6k 3.2k
Morale: 100 150 100
Turrets: 18 10 18
Troops: 18 14 18
Speed: 120 240 160
Armor: 83/67 83 83/67
Rotation: 4 10 4
Raw DPS(not counting abilities): 16.8(4.5k)/15.6(9k) 12 28.6 (4.5l)/22.2(9k)

So in short the ships in the Scythe Harvesters price range have higher raw DPS, much more health, shields (which regen faster than the harvester does I think) more turrets and more troops. The harvester has better speed and rotation (because CR v BB) but loses overall in those departments when comparing ID vs Imperial maneuver gauge. It also has flat better morale due to the necron +50 morale a racial trait. You'll notice I did not mention armor. Why? Because the armor of 83/67 gets a boost from a certain stance that is always on. This boost brings it from 83/67 to 108/92 (if I remember how armor works correctly anyways), which is vastly better than any necron ship. So the only thing the Harvester has is that it is (theoretically) faster, and starpulse, which is getting nerfed. The two mentioned ships also have abilities, one of which is a nova cannon (200-400 damage, aoe, -100 morale, faster cooldown than pulse I think) and torpedoes (8x 90D, 45 reload) but I left those out because one is a skill shot so DPS is variable (it will always hit a jump on cooldown necron ship for 720D though) The other is disabled if you get to close, so it can be avoided. Also to take into consideration is that necron can always be critted because no shields, while all other races do not suffer from this. On stances, they have the same reload as the imperials, a splitshot not useful in a direct comparison (or most of the time) and a nearly useless healing ability. To extrapolate on the uselessness of the healing ability: despite using starpulse, today I had a scythe harvester lose 1v1 to a emperor. Despite killing all of its ord with starpulse. Oh, and there was a dauntless there too but he got starpulsed. I might have done my math wrong somewhere but this really doesn't seem to be equivalent point for point (aka balanced). Maybe I'm missing something?

Lore is never an arguement for gameplay power...still phase out should be there...In bfg the tabletop they were unbeatable. it really should be different. I think slow with very rare 120sec or something but long during super speed with multiple turns during so but needs to be choosen for complete activation once befor activation and course cant be changed during it. Its like giving chain commands. very slow but instant turn on some ships otherwise ( base speed) strong guns strong all round tank. Cant remeber if easy to enter or not at all applies in the lore.

last edited by sahneyoghurt

there are limits obviously to how close you can follow lore
but currently necrons break it on every level and the end result is neither balanced nor fun
so the gameplay first argument is pointless
their gameplay is shit currently

they need to be tanky ass hell, thats what necrons are
you should try to focus down their morale health bar instead of their hull health bar
thats why they have no rally or inspiring speech on their ships like other factions do
morale is supposed to be their weakness giving a good mechanic to win around
a good mechanic that makes it pretty balanced, you just need to fight them very differently but that doesnt make it unbalanced
focus deck instead of engines, burst damage and so on
using mechanics already in the game
but they completely dismissed that weakness by letting them insubordinate and just execute the captain

and because necrons now dont have the weakness they should have, they instead removed the strengths they should have and wouldnt be a problem if they had a weakness

I am also very sad about the current state of Necrons. Having one single OP tactic while all others are very subpar calls for an urgent rebalance, because c'mon, Necrons are the most advanced and probably the most powerful faction in 40k. I wouldn't want them to be completely OP either because then there's no game, but I believe there must be a sweet spot and I want to help find it.

In my opinion, it should be possible to strengthen them by improving the areas where they lack right now, with straigth numerical buffs over completely new additions. I have been playing around with a fleet loadout designed around plugging the holes they have and making use of some of their unique abilities (while avoiding just resorting on the Star Pulse Generator), and I must say I'm having some actual success. Here it is: I will use it as reference to the buffs I propose.

***=NSFW content***

click to show

The main holes I had to plug were the easiness with which Necrons can get critted and losing troops due to lack of shields. I maximize the amount of largest ships to have loads of HP, and I use their special terror tactics to gain an edge. I don't focus my tactics on using the Star Pulse Generator as a weapon, although I will if given the chance. However, I have to completely ignore the offensive capabilities of Doom Scythes and the passive HP regen because right now they do absolutely nothing (ok, they do something, but it's negligible compared to other factions), and use a single Stance for line ships so they can use their mobility a tad more often. Given that I get some measure of effectiveness by using these tactics, it appears plugging those holes does help indeed, so I believe Necrons should be buffed in the following way:

  • Increase passive HP regen. Right now it's just too negligible. It doesn't have to be enormous, but it should increase the Time-To-Kill of their ships. I think it's 1 HP/sec right now; could it be let's say 3-4 HP/sec?
  • Slightly increased HP across all ships could also help make them feel tankier.
  • Reduce the cooldown of the Inertialess Drive. Even with the Reload stance, it's too large and removes a lot of necessary mobility. Someone in the Steam forums had suggested to, additionally to this, tie the cooldown to distance travelled (a bit like the Combustion Gauge in other factions).
  • Increase or add resistance to critical hits, or allow them to self-repair after some time, since they have no shields. I'm not sure how the mechanics work here, but I think it would be nice for Necron ships to be harder to crit, or that they naturally get rid of any crit after some time (so enemies have to focus fire, which is exactly what they should be doing).
  • Increase damage of Doom Sctyhes. Right now they seem to only be able to act as spotters, and they're the only craft Necrons have...
  • Reduce (yes, nerf) the damage of Star Pulse Generator and the additional one provided by the special upgrade. It doesn't have to be 50% of their current damage, but for example dealing only 65-75% would still allow for using them as weapons, without risking having another BFGA1 Eldar lance problem.

@necroledo said in necron issues and breaking of lore... why did you ruin them?:

However, I have to completely ignore the offensive capabilities of Doom Scythes and the passive HP regen because right now they do absolutely nothing (ok, they do something, but it's negligible compared to other factions)

  • Increase or add resistance to critical hits, or allow them to self-repair after some time, since they have no shields. I'm not sure how the mechanics work here, but I think it would be nice for Necron ships to be harder to crit, or that they naturally get rid of any crit after some time (so enemies have to focus fire, which is exactly what they should be doing).
  • Increase damage of Doom Sctyhes. Right now they seem to only be able to act as spotters, and they're the only craft Necrons have...

a few things

  • the doom scythes are interceptors, they dont do damage, none at all
    they are for defense and scouting not offense
    they can damage turrets but you have nothing that cares about turrets
    dont use them as bombers because they dont have bombs and cant do any damage at all
    not saying they are bad at it, they simply dont have the capability
  • they already repair systems on their own, its prety slow and only temporary crits but just like tyranids they do repair them

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