Tyranid assault boats?

@demoulius
hive ships dont have jaws, they have spurs
...

but nids are about boarding, currently no smart nid player is going to use it
and considering this is about assault boats im asking for a suggestion to make assault boats viable, not nids in general
it shouldnt be a waste of a weapon slot especially considering its the most expensive weapon
if you want the results to be less in the never going to happen ideal situation that requires all levels of failure on your enemys side
then results vs a good opponent it should be better then the 0 succes rate it has now
it doesnt even work vs me and im not that good
else its not even a weapon anymore, just decoration

@Fosil yes, usually at the start of the match, tends to fix itself as battle goes on, also doesnt show things like scanner probes
but have also seen invisible interceptors stop bombers in the middle of the map

last edited by Ashardalon

Ok, guess it wasent a hive ship. But his 'big ship with jaws' did just about as much damage to itself as it did to my light cruiser. Possibly even more. My buddy said he saw the chewing animation but I dident but regardless, it did nothing.

You are asking what id do to assault boats and ive said so. They are currently overkill compared to what they are in the lore and what they were in the previous game.

If it doesent work on you, good for you! Then you wont be effected by any change made to it either. But judging from the numerous people ive seen that ask 'why is my ship suddenly depopulated' or 'why am i taking crew damage? I dont see anything happening' its not a non-issue for everyone.

Ive personally learned to deal with it and if you know what to expect its easy. Doesent take away that its super powerfull and with some thought behind it can be used as a very effective tactic. But I feel the way forward for nids is to give them alternatives, to fix their broken things and then go from there.

Really? How is this a fucking issue? Tyranid assault boat can be easily killed by a single fighter squad or brace for impact. If you don't do either of those then i'm sorry it was your fault. Why don't we focus on the real issues such as craftworld deleting everything or orks having 190pt bbs.

Yes and the nid player is incapable of sending fighters ahead of his assaults to take out yours, keep your turrets busy or otherwise think of ways in which to pass by your defenses.

Lets all forget that the player trying to kill you also has ways to bypass your defenses...

@demoulius That's why you shoot them down, or just move the target behind everything else? It's really not hard.

so you want nid launch bays to be just for decoration and their most expensive ship to have no weapons

great balance

people die to all kinds of stuff because they dont understand systems and nerfing systems to be irrelevant isnt going to make them learn them
it just promotes ignoring them and never learning anything
mechanics should be relevant so you are promoted to learn them
those same people that die to assault boats die to fightabommaz

nid assault boats need to be less sneaky, have some form of exhaust so you can spot them like other assault boats
but nerfing them without adding a way to make them even slightly viable is a stupid idea that will leave a lot of nid ships without weapons and giving other weapons more use will still leave those ships as wastes of space in the fleet builder menu
all ships should be viable in the right situation
and that right situation shouldnt be a braindead opponent

Yeah the invis strike craft bug is a massive pain

@ashardalon said in Tyranid assault boats?:

so you want nid launch bays to be just for decoration and their most expensive ship to have no weapons

great balance

people die to all kinds of stuff because they dont understand systems and nerfing systems to be irrelevant isnt going to make them learn them
it just promotes ignoring them and never learning anything
mechanics should be relevant so you are promoted to learn them
those same people that die to assault boats die to fightabommaz

nid assault boats need to be less sneaky, have some form of exhaust so you can spot them like other assault boats
but nerfing them without adding a way to make them even slightly viable is a stupid idea that will leave a lot of nid ships without weapons and giving other weapons more use will still leave those ships as wastes of space in the fleet builder menu
all ships should be viable in the right situation
and that right situation shouldnt be a braindead opponent

Nowhere am I saying that their launch bays have to be trivialized. If you fucking read my posts you would have picked this up a long time ago.

I am not saying they should just nerf assault boats and leave it at that. Again if you actually read you would have seen that. Im saying they should make the fleet as a whole more viable but the insane assault boat damage imho is something that needs to be adressed.

But hey, it doesent effect you so anything someone else says is false right?

People die to all kind of things because the game explains precious little. The tooltips say fuck all and for launch bays you cant even check on the damage bombers would do, at what speed things move. You know, basic things that were bloody present in the previous game. That alone would give players alot of information and ways to deal with it. Now the only way to know is by trial and error or by beeing told here on the forums what something does. And not all players visit forums.

Add to that things like bugs that make things invisible and youve got a nice mix that makes things pretty terrible for newer players.

And let me get something straight. If this game doesent have a good new-player experience it will die very fast like the previous game did. Its already a niche game as is, they dont need a poor new-player experience to turn off potential players from the game even more.

@demoulius said in Tyranid assault boats?:

I am not saying they should just nerf assault boats and leave it at that. Again if you actually read you would have seen that. Im saying they should make the fleet as a whole more viable but the insane assault boat damage imho is something that needs to be adressed.

so your saying they shouldnt just nerf assault boats and your going to give them a viable option by bufiing other stuff and making assault boats worthless and even more non viable then they already are

do you read your own sentences? you dont give a way to make assault boats viable
the rest of nids is a whole different discussion
this one is about nid assault boats and you are only suggesting nerfs for assault boats while saying nothing about how they would be relevant at all
buffs to other weapons are not going to make assault boats worth anything

tho i do agree that the tooltips for launch bays have becone a lot worse in this version
the info is critical and should be present again
no idea why they made it less clear

and new player experience should come at the cost of player experience
if it has good new player experience players will stick around and if assault boats only get nerfed it might be better in the beginning but later you will see launch bays disappearing completely because old players know the counter and find it a worthless thing to bring
and any new player that does bring them will be a joke for older players
which is also not a good experience for both new and old
thats why im saying they should get a buff to be viable against competent players
dont mind if the results are nerfed a bit, but if you do that they need to get something extra to make them viable instead of the all or nothing system there is now and you dont give a suggestion for that
just nerf the damage making it a waste of space resulting in any new player getting laughed at for bringing bays at all giving a great new player experience
all weapons should be viable in the right situation, buffing other weapons isnt going to make launch bays viable

currently vs experienced players you can atleast you can threaten with assault boats
forcing them to clump and retreat into the maws of devourers you circled around with
thats a hard strategy to pull off
but atleast its something, nerfing them into uselessness will have them just ignore them resulting in even that hard to pull of maneuver being worthless
currently assault boats are a threat atleast, nothing more, but atleast you can use it to threaten people

last edited by Ashardalon

I am saying a faction is the sum of its parts. No 1 faction should have to solely rely on 1 part of its arsenal to win. Thus if other options are viable in their arsenal they have (good) options and assault boats dont need to do boatloads of crew damage to the point of absurdity.

I am neither saying that new player experience should ruin the experience for older players, nor am I saying that one sides experience is more important then the other.

I do read my own sentances yes. Do you read mine? Because im not getting the impression that you are. This topic IS about assault boats and im going to stop explaining to you why it is an issue. You are activly trolling at this point and repeating yourself.

It seems like you are just deadly afraid of change and will fight anything that poses a threat to your own perfect little bubble.

you are not reading your own sentences
making other weapons more viable is not going to help launch bays at all
it will make them even less appealing forcing people to use only other weapons
explain to me how making launch bays useless and macros better will make it appealing to have some launch bays in their fleet
you never mention it, you just say you mentioned it but you never did, you never explained anything you just keep saying you explained it
buffing macros wont make launch bays worth anything, explain how you dont understand that
just tell me how launch bays can be viable because your macro buffs and having the assault bays that can already be easily countered will be relevant if they cant even achieve anything in the best case scenario
how many times do i need to explain how its a all or nothing weapon, and that if you remove the all it will just be a nothing weapon
give a way it can be viable vs someone who isnt afk and i can agree with nerfing the damage, because i would like it to be different, i would like it to not be all or nothing
but the difference between you and me is that i want it to stay viable in some way, not just scrap a bunch of nid ships because they have weapons that arnt just aesthetic but actively negative to them because it gives away their position

and no im not afraid of losing anything, my main nid fleet doesnt even have launch bays because they are only viable vs noobs
i would like to use them but there is no scenario where they are a good choice
so nerfing them is the opposite of what should happen

if you think knowing the mechanics is trolling its clear that learning mechanic is something you despise and you just want a win button vs a faction you dont understand how to handle
that is what i would be saying if i was trying to be trolling, but instead im advocating for trying to figure out an alternative way that assault boats could survive more but with less damage without just turning them into marines

I had a lot of the same questions initially about nids instantly depopulating my ships.

The mechanic/trigger is not particularly apparent, and it was very frustrating to instantly having all of my ships reduced to drifting hulks. I wasnt sure what the cause was or how to counterplay and at first i thought it was OP as well. So i definitely can understand your concerns - new players will absolutely find this very frustrating and i think transparency could be improved so that at least you have a better understanding of what is happening to your ships. Especially because troops/assault has been significantly reworked from the first game.

I then made a post on the forum trying to get more information on assaults (ashardalon provided a very illuminating post so thanks for that!) - it made a lot more sense as far as what was happening, but still seemed very strong.

I then tried playing some games as carrier nids. When i played vs newbies with just a few battleships, i was amazed as i hulked them all instantly (they were isolated and in lock on stance) and my inital thoughts of "OP" seemed vindicated. However, then i played vs some more experienced players and really saw the limitations/counterplay first hand. This really made me realize the limitations of assault craft, and how "all or nothing" it truly is.

These more experienced players grouped up their ships, and used manuevers to make my assault boats chase them for long distances. With "brace for impact" on, these chases shot down almost all of my craft, significantly lessening their impact. When i was able to land an assault, they had LC's nearby to instantly repopulate them via lightnighy strike. I then tried boarding to rehulk their ships, but they just zipped another LC by to repopulate again... very frustrating to play against that as nids, since there seems to be no additional damage that you inflict with additional hulkings.

Overall feedback:
Assault craft seem very OP for newer players due to unclear mechanics and high baseline damage. At low levels of play they seem to overperform.

Correct counterplay seems to punish assault craft too hard at the moment. With brace, interceptors, limited charges, and minimal punishment for recrewing a hulk, assault craft are near-useless and not worth it at a higher level of play.

last edited by crewfinity

Just played a game, guy had four massive carriers on the other side of the map vomiting out harpies, I shot them all down with imperial fighters near my line ships on brace for impact.

Round one me. Particularly as my silent running escorts are capping points.

Round Two his carriers get much closer I lose a vengeance, an escort has to break cover to escape, another vengence is scuttled.

Round Two tyranids

Round three:- enemy ships converge on my flag. I put scuttled vengence between me and them then detonate. Just as I escape to the other side of the map.

Round four a draw.

Round 5 a recrewed vengence draws the enemy off.

By now points in my favour, just need to escape away.

Game crashes mid game - first game ever.

I wonder if hacks.

less hard counters is what this game needs and what massively improves new player experience.

@Mystic_Taboo oh ive seen plenty of crashes. Both at startup of a match and in between. Probably a crash, dont think it was intentional tbh...

@Ashardalon
How is giving the nids a working fleet a bad idea exactly? Buffing assault boats at the moment is a seriously bad idea given how much damage they do. Nerfing them without changing anything else makes them even useless in the hands of a capable player. Thus you cant nerf or buff them without taking the rest of their fleet into consideration. Doing a little bit of both (so a rework) would be the best bet. However at the moment the tool tips are really beeing a hinerance.I cant see what damage they do, what speed things move at etc, so everything that I have to work with is guesswork.

But if you HAD to. Id buff the speed on their assault boats. Making sure that they can easily catch cruisers and even still catch them when boosting away, albeit giving the turrets more time to react then. Decrease the crew damage that they do. Probably halve it. Give them more charges to use (global for the consumables btw, 3 is really little) Maybe add a chance for a temporary crit. Having a rampaging carnifex on board your ship isent going to be nice for your ships lay out, hes going to be doing some redecorating.

@demoulius
first off all im not against making nids viable in other ways
i dont play nid carrier, i play nid jaw because its a lot better and more fun and i would like to see nid pyro being good
giving nids a working fleet isnt a bad idea, just unrelated to this tread, those are good suggestions, they just have nothing to do with assault boats
the thing is no matter how good nids are made in other things will have 0 effect at how good or bad their launch bays are
while other factions fighting nids can strip shield and leave them without turrets that option doesnt exist vs any other faction
nids bays need to be viable on their own, unrelated to macros or lances or tentacles
tentacles arnt going to support harpies because they cant
if you are going to lower assault boat numbers they need to be more survivable, but then you have marines
nid assault boats are slowest
its lore, so while all ordnance speed needs to go up you cant go too far with it
so we are stuck with a weapon that is barely relevant at all, that with the slightest hint of a nerf would make several nid ships completely unusable and no reasonable or lore possible corrections suggested

guess you could cut the damage they do down from 3 to 1 but give 8 assault boats in the squad instead of the 4 they have now, possibly up to 10 but make them more fragile
more charges i would really like to see, but have been asking for more charges for some ordnance for a long time
ors need more fightabommaz because they serve dual function and mechanius storing fewer craft then impeial navy makes no sense
but its not in yet so fear its not going to happen, i have asked for long enough to lose hope
the crits will probably be disliked by a lot of people, i can see the sense but the entire result of hulking a ship is two crits so extra possible random crits might be disagreed by many
maybe better attach hull damage i guess, but hull damage is not something nid boarding fleet cares about so might just be pointless addition

last edited by Ashardalon

I get what you are saying on launch bays standing on their own feet. And I agree with that. But the reason why I feel that the rest of the fleet needs some work is because the rest of their fleet.... Just isent that super scary. Its down to their jaws not working for starters. Their lances pierce through shields meaning the batteries alone dont do anything to that. All of the things in the nid arsenal just kinda do their own thing without cooperating. Which is what im worried about. Anyway, this post was about the launch bays.

Lowering the number of crew damage while increasing the number of assault boats could work. Heck give them abit higher speed as well. They have so many counters at the moment it would still be alright. Id love for them to test this out so we can see the impacted change this would have. I think we all want assault boats to be a viable potent weapon. That can be countered, but is dangerous if it sent.

Also, lest I forget to say it.... I LOVE THAT A COMMON CARRIER TACTIC FROM THE TABLETOP TRANSLATED TO THIS GAME!!!!! 😍 😍 😍

hmm when talking nids i would perhaps suggest lowering the troop damage by half or so and making so nid assualt boats can replenish over time seeing as they already birth their own units in space i dont see y a carrier couldnt do the same perhaps at the cost of some hull points to reflect the loss in biomass, and if you went that route maybe let them eat their escorts so they are actually worth bringing lol

last edited by imptastic

Thats not a bad idea 🤔

Also maybe let them replenish their own troops with feeder tendrils? The reason why is kinda in the name 😇

@demoulius Eat your opponent's troop strength to replenish your own forces? I like it - very approppriate for the Gereat Devourer.