Adeptus Astartes fleet feedback

Hey-ho. Just jotting some ideas down for the developers, but Space Marines as they stand are a complete and utter joke. I can get the same thing done as the Navy spamming cheaper and more deadly Avenger GCs which can mince any ship with health equal to ships I have to pay 450+ for as a Marine.

Durability is far too low and is probably the point I'll mention most. These ships cost sometimes two orr three times as much as counterparts on other factions despite having no significant health advantage or armour advantage. Battle Barges especially draw my ire here as these vessels really could do with 2 or 3x the health and shields they currently have for the price they demand. These vessels should function as a close range skirmisher mixed with an ork krooza - their armour needs to be significantly higher or their shield and health values need to be boosted to allow them to stay in the fight against overwhelming odds because due to their cost and weak armament, they are always outnumbered and always outgunned which is a terrible mix for any faction.

Either that, or lower the price to the 180 - 240pt range to allow 2 - 3 of them in 2v2s and 5 - 6 in 1v1s.

This applies to both 1v1 and 2v2 - I can burst 1200 shield points down in under 8 seconds with Navy builds involving the avenger. That's not even considering Nova Cannons which can potentially instantly cripple any Space Marine ship in one volley if you have three of them. Smaller ships just get destroyed outright.

This should go some way to helping them be more viable as right now these Marine ships are quite literally inferior to most ork vessels that you can pick up for the 160 point price range when used in a brawling match. Their only edge is the utility they provide in the form of assault options, but that's something I'll mention in another point later down the line.

Firepower is... actually pretty good.

The bombardment cannon hits suitably hard and the macro cannons on smaller vessels like the Strike Cruiser MK1 & Vanguard MK1 are very good at mincing unshielded ships for their price range. I still think these ships could do with some durability boosts though, as I'm paying 160 points for a ship that is two classes smaller and less armoured than an Imperial Navy ship of the same price, which also has far more firepower.

I do think the lances could do with being looked at, as they feel to simply tickle an enemy and almost never take down a shield which really just means they are almost never worth taking - the battlebarge with lances instead of bombardment cannon almost certainly never is, while it is stable sustained dps it also lacks up close and will never deal sufficient damage to even drop anything above a BC class vessel's shields.

Escourts are also pretty terrible, but at least these are cheap so whatever - they're point fillers on most factions so this isn't really an issue.

Utility options are a huge problem right now though. Seriously. Why are my Thunderhawk and Stormraven squadrons limited to 3 uses???

Space Marines are entirely built around boarding actions, they sacrifice weapons, speed and everything except armour/durability and boarding utilities. They are orks taken to an even further extreme, where instead of having a red button to ram their enemies they instead strap several thousand kilometers of extra armour around the entire ship to allow it to brawl with huge space stations and still come out ontop or to support planetary landings.

Lore stuff aside, in terms of gameplay, really - why are the attack options a Space Marine gets in order to deal with their enemies limited to 3 uses. They are easily shot down unless you have several vessels to do the job and not to mention, we're missing a core utility.

Where are my assault rams? You know, the vessel Marines use to board a heavily fortified and defended ship because it is so fast and so resilient that it can punch through all but the most durable vessel? I want to see this added to the game, throw it in as a guaranteed boarding action that cannot be shot down, this one you can limit to three uses but the rest should be made unlimited.

I understand other races having limits on this, and I understand the lore reasons why you might limit the amount of thunderhawks or torpedoes being used by a battle barge but this is ridiculous. This doesn't help balance the game in any form, it simply limits a race with already limited options to play in the most pigeonholed way possible - stay at long range and spam lances to play as discount chaos, because anything else is likely to get shut down by a competent {can micro more than 1 ship per minute} player.

Really though. This part is a must, I want to see thunderhawks of both variety and stormraven fighter wings get unlimited uses. They're already on a cooldown. Either that, or massively boost their assault power. I shouldn't be losing my extremely limited fighter wing to a squadron of Ork planes.

Secondly, on this front, I want to see the assault options get seperate cooldowns. I'm fine grouping lightning strike/boarding pods but Fighters & Bombers should be seperate. I have to use fighters to soften up a target for a bombing run anyhow, making the two coexist on the same rather long cooldown means that most times when I take out some turrets I cannot follow it up as the turrets will be almost immediately repaired.

Space Marines' boarding options do have pretty consistent results and most times succeed but the limit of how many times they can be used is ridiculous, they are not powerful enough to justify this limit.

Especially for a faction that is entirely built around boarding actions, differentiate them from the rest - when a Space Marine boards your ship, you've already failed as an admiral. Work around that concept.

So, to summarise this for those uninterested of reading through the text above:
1).
Buff Marine durability across the board - as much as 2 or 3 times as much hull and shield in places in order to provide substantially improved sustainability in fights. Part of this would also include point defenses. It is far too easy to sabotage a Marine's battle barge with fighters and bombers due to the limited number of vessels a marine player can field while an opponent could field several vessels capable of spamming fighters & bombers which will overwhelm the single battle barge with ease.

OR

Lower the price of marine vessels significantly.
Bring them in line with other factions so they can compete as an equal faction rather than existing as this discount 'elite force' where they get very limited ships but instead of all of the ships being very powerful, they're just all trash.

2).
Marine firepower is mostly good. In the sense that they aren't designed to take out other ships in void combat but rather sustain the damage and board the enemy. As far as damage on them goes, it is suitable as it is, I don't think they need any significant damage boosts as they should be dealing damage via boarding actions not their guns. I do think lances need to be looked at as they don't seem to do enough damage to really justify using them. Your enemy can simply rush you as your ships aren't that fast and negate the advantage of range or consistent damage, as their proximity will mean their weapons do higher DPS with comparable accuracy.

3).
Escourts are pretty solid, though very brittle they are akin to other faction escourts in most ways so it's whatever. I do think there should be an escourt with a fighter contingent though, to allow the escourts to provide fighters while your battle barge deploys a host of bombers when the fighters have taken out hostile turrets.

4).
Astartes utility is extremely lacking. I overlooked this in the first game as it was just a DLC but this is really unacceptable. There's no passion or effort put into these assault abilities to make them any different from other factions barring some morale damage.

Orks have ramming, Space Marines have boarding. Fighting an Ork at close range is dangerous, fighting a Space Marine at close range is suicidal.

I want to see all Astartes boarding methods made unlimited or made significantly more powerful to justify a three use limit. I'm talking 1/3rd of HP per successful boarding action and 2/3rds per successful critical boarding action. As it stands, they are a joke in terms of boarding potential.

The same also goes for fire support options. Bombers & Fighters are not powerful enough with the limited number of Space Marine ships available to you in most matches to justify limiting their use to three times per vessel. These utility assets are absolutely crucial to Space Marine play because it revolves so heavily around boarding and assault actions - they sacrifice their firepower as a fair trade off and in return, we need to see their utility and durability take a few steps up.

Lastly. I want to see Assault Rams. Give Space Marines a unique aspect as far as boarding goes. A guaranteed boarding action that cannot be shot down. You can limit this one to three uses, as it should be noticably more powerful in their use. I'd go so far as to say it should be guaranteeing critical damage to components you target or at the very least push them near the edge.

All in all, I'm loving the beta so far. Game feels very solid and much like more of the same, which I very much enjoyed. I'm looking forward to the campaign and do hope to see more done with Multiplayer, (Titan mode!!! I want the Macragge's Honour), but the balance right now does worry me. And it worries me because it is very similar to how the first game was - an imbalanced mess with two very powerful races and the rest rather mediocre due to obvious oversights in design philosophy.

Hope you guys read it, take it to heart and maybe implement some of this into the final product. Might make playing Adeptus Astartes worthwhile as right now, it is extremely difficult to win games with Space Marines against enemies that aren't completely incompetent.

last edited by ProteusLychoro

Points:

First, put your fanboyism aside for a minute. There are issues with SMs, but you're asking for things which are completely overboard.

Durability:
Definitely, SMs are supposed to engage in planetary assaults and orbital bombardment, the table top they had the heaviest all round armour in the game, they should have heavy shielding, armour, HP and point defence turrets to survive. 2x3 times HP and shields, no that's too much, they definitely need greater shielding and HP though. Their armour is already 85 all round i think? which is the equivalent of 6+ in Ttop, it can't get much higher than that.

Ship value:
No, they're elite they should stay as elite. Small numbers, high power ships. But currently I still think the game point cap is too low, maybe 1,500 would be better.

Firepower:
Lol no, lances are not supposed to be effective against shields, they're supposed to be effective against armour, it knocks the armour value of a target down to 25... seriously, have you read what each weapon system does, or played Ttop? They're fine as they are SMs don't get special treatment just because they're SPESH MEHREENS! Bombardment cannon are your go to close range sledge hammer weapons to pummel the enemy into submission; lances are your long range pinpoint weapons to cripple capital ships after their shields have been knocked down.

Thunderhawks, boarding and other munitions:
Everyone's munitions are limited to stop people sitting back and spamming waves of torpedoes, Nova cannon and bombers (Eldar kiting people round the map and spamming Eagle bombers springs to mind) First if you're staying at range with Sm's you're doing it wrong, it's all about close range fire fights and boarding, obviously there are durability issues at the moment which are a problem. T top allowed you to re roll defence dice to prevent them getting shot down, not sure if that's factored in in this game.

Assault:
Yes SMs should be more effective in assault, not just a higher critical hit %, have higher troop ratings and do more damage eg: prevent enemies scuttling their ships (understandably boarding SM squads are going to quickly go for the bridge, life support, engines and disable them to stop the enemy scuttling the ship) SMs are not built solely round boarding actions they're just very good at it.

Escorts:
No escort should have access to launch bays.

As someone who plays space marines heavily, I love playing them but they are worthless. I don't think they need any help with assault actions, with the boarding system as it is now they are about as good as you can hope for on that front. Boarding just isn't that good right now. A lot of stuff would change I think if they just brought back the increased penalties to each level of troops(used to be a 25% decrease to fire rate and skill cooldown per level, now it's just the 10%). I think boarding is not the end all be all of what they should aspire to in combat. It should be used to compliment the fleet and reduce the enemy ships capability to fight back.

They tried to be true to the tabletop and give SM low health but good armor, but with the armor changes it just ends up making them squishy as hell. I think one of the best ways to buff their toughness would actually be to just buff their shields though. Currently they have (LC/C/BS 200/200/600) shields while the IN has (LC/C/BS 200/400/800) shields. I'd say buff the SM shields to be equal to the IN values. This would give the strike cruiser survivability during close passes and let it use it's speed to avoid major retaliation while it's shields came back up. The Battle Barge would get a little tougher but nothing crazy. It wouldn't change the Vanguard but I actually think it's in a good place as far as survivability for what it should be.

Agreed in every point, expect I think SM macros are not strong enough.

Yeah SM are the worst faction in the game by a large margin right now.

I really hope the developers give this a read, SM is the worst fleet in the game at the moment.

@valrak said in Adeptus Astartes fleet feedback:

I really hope the developers give this a read, SM is the worst fleet in the game at the moment.

I had no idea you were on these forums, that's awesome! Watched your video on the Spess Mehreens this morning.

> SM firepower
> Good

0_1544738021678_ad38930e-32b3-4907-8f29-fca220801c32-image.png

@caliger_reborn
...So that's god damn horrifying.

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