Armor and damage model desperately needs a rework

The current damage model in this is atrocious. Honestly it was better in the closed alpha where it took like six shots to kill someone with an M16, because at least it made sense back then. Now it's just silly. All 5.56 NATO and 7.62x39mm rifles (with the exception of carbines) take two shots to the chest to kill regardless of whether the target has light, heavy, or no armor. If you haven't seen it, FreedN and Whitby tested all the guns and made a chart of it. I've done testing on only some of this stuff, but I can tell you that I came up with the same results as they did.
https://forums.focus-home.com/topic/32770/dmg-values-are-broken-needs-fixing-asap?page=1

What I see needs to be done is this:

  • All 5.56 and 7.62 rifles should kill in one shot to the chest with no armor.

  • Actually give a physical model for the armor so that it matches what you see them wearing. It seems like currently armor is just "X% of damage to chest reduced if wearing armor". This means shots to the sides and below the neck are still absorbed by armor even though you can't see any there.

  • Rather than armor reducing a certain percent of damage, armor should reduce all or almost all damage until it breaks after a few shots, rendering it useless.

  • Remove back protection for light armor.

  • Give light and heavy armor the same level of protection from a shot. The difference between the two should be that heavy armor protects the lower chest and back, which is how it appears on players in-game. Part of the current problem with armor is when everything (with the exception of the Makarov) kills in three shots or less at close range, and you have many different calibers, it is difficult to balance three levels of protection.

I've been much preferring the TTK this patch but haven't had the chance to sit down and redo the research.

It appears the FAL is still a 1tap and the SCAR is either a one or two depending on where the shot hits. I suspect upper and lower torso shots count as different hitboxes and there is some variation as a result of it - I have had 1taps with the SCAR which haven't vapourised people's heads.

It feels much better to me overall, but a little more lethality would definitely be preferred.

As for individual weapon performance, if anybody is willing, I'd like to create a new shots-to-kill graph for this patch and perhaps go into some more detail than before. Add me on Steam, same name, Donald Trump meme as a pic.

last edited by Whitby

Indeed, damage needs a rework.
The SCAR-H is actually an always 2 shot to kill weapon (not counting the headshots obviously) and it doesn't disintegrate body parts like it did before.
The MP7 has worse stopping power than my airsoft gun, which is just pathetic, since hajis with their ironsighted, cold war era guns can look at you with an angry eye and 1 shot kill you instantly.
I'm sure I'm not the only one when I say: This is not the Insurgency I fell in love with back then.

I think they should ditch the entire armor system and throw it into the trash. the entire idea is silly to me in the context of the game.

They wanted to avoid the armour piercing rounds meta, the closed technical had issues of bullets not registering or just dealing no damage which made the gameplay rather poor, they sped up the ttk to make it more like insurgency which is great, you want the game to be more cod like were one full 30 round magazine is required to kill three maybe four people which takes away from the feeling of insurgency, insurgency isn't some hyper simulation game, it still retains an arcade feeling to it which is enjoyable and a fast ttk is what has always made insurgency rather special, that combined with amazing animations and incredible sound effects and accurate weapons which dispense bullets where the barrel is pointing, all this is what makes insurgency unique.

The armour and damage models could do with a bit of tlc at some point so heavy armour can take a bit of punishment from smaller caliber rounds and to make helmets actually useful but as it is at the moment it still feels like insurgency which is great and it's still a very enjoyable game.

last edited by Depleted

Another thing I noticed is almost no bullet penetration.
Doors are pretty much the best example, but I've seen literally bulletproof umbrellas. Suicide bomber runs up to me, I fire 6-8 shots at him through an umbrella, and yeah he's still running up to me blowing himself up.
Next time I respawn I check to see the umbrella which has like I mentioned those 6-8 shots and the suicide bomber was right behind it.
I get it, that walls can catch a 5.56, but a door (let alone fabric and glass lol), come on...

Then remove one of the levels of protection. Either remove light armor, or remove the ability to run around a battlefield in a T-shirt. Or you could just rework the damage as follows:

7.62x51, 7.62x54: one shot at any range through armor

7.62x39: two shot against heavy armor, one shot against everything else

5.56, 5.45: one shot against light armor in close range, two shots in long range; two shots against heavy armor in close range, three shots at long range

Pistols/SMGs: two shots against heavy/light armor in close range, three shots against heavy armor at long range. This one is up for change due to the variety of calibers for pistols

@sgt-kanyo there's good penetration - doors and walls. The problems are with those objects - umbrellas, microwaves, screens, etc. Those objects even protect you vs grenades.

@sangon
Are we even playing the same game? There's almost like no bullet penetration. Last time I was shooting the 7.62x51 SCAR-H, shot 5 shots through the door into a haji running towards me trying to blow himself up. Let me just tell you he did end up blowing himself up.
And there was absolutely no way for me missing a shot since I closed the door on him before.
A car door wouldn't be able to protect you from a 9mm for god's sake, let alone assault rifle rounds.

@sgt-kanyo Penetration works for me on both walls and doors. Furniture and other items are the ones i have issues with.
I usually see better penetration with LMG, the PKM in particular.

My experience is penetration reduces damage, damage is already low and non-lethal for most weapons. Almost all kills I've had through cover I've heard the headshot sound through the wall/door.

I think it's a lack of lethality issue overall.

I've just realised that the Insurgent team is overpowered as hell due to unrealistic weapon behaviour.
Was in a PvP match as Team Security. Couldn't get a single effin kill with the M4 + aimpoint + foregrip. One of the insurgents was vaulting, so I opened fire, this time in full auto to see wether more bullets would give me a better chance. I ended up getting outgunned by a fucking 9mm.
Next round same map, I'm on team haji with the AKM with ironsight NO foregrip. Easiest first 3 kills in a row I had while I wasn't even looking at the enemy. AKM seemed to be a 1 shot 1 kill weapon and more controllable than an XM8 irl. I got shot at 2 times from either an M16 or an M4 (definitely 5.56 by the sound of it) and it only damaged me. I was wearing light armor on both sides. Now what the actual fuck is this seriously. Are the 5.56 Security weapons firing blanks? And how is it possible that a lot more modern weapon with a foregrip is less controllable than a larger caliber absolutely bone stock cold war era POS?
This and the bot aim just kills this game, make this a priority please NWI, because this as of now is unplayable.

@sgt-kanyo said in Armor and damage model desperately needs a rework:

I've just realised that the Insurgent team is overpowered as hell due to unrealistic weapon behaviour.

Overpowered as hell? Well, then they should have much higher win percentage for most of the players. I don't believe this claim the slightest bit.

Was in a PvP match as Team Security. Couldn't get a single effin kill with the M4 + aimpoint + foregrip. One of the insurgents was vaulting, so I opened fire, this time in full auto to see wether more bullets would give me a better chance. I ended up getting outgunned by a fucking 9mm.

What do you think was the real reason you lost that fight? I bet it's not because you were outgunned

Next round same map, I'm on team haji with the AKM with ironsight NO foregrip. Easiest first 3 kills in a row I had while I wasn't even looking at the enemy.

You played two rounds and now you conclude that you have enough data to state that it's over powered.

I've had plenty of easy kills with m16 today, yesterday and the day before. M16 must be even more overpowered.

AKM seemed to be a 1 shot 1 kill weapon and more controllable than an XM8 irl. I got shot at 2 times from either an M16 or an M4 (definitely 5.56 by the sound of it) and it only damaged me. I was wearing light armor on both sides. Now what the actual fuck is this seriously. Are the 5.56 Security weapons firing blanks?

5.56 kill in two shots to the upper body even against heavy armor, unless shooting very far. You were most likely hit on limbs.

And how is it possible that a lot more modern weapon with a foregrip is less controllable than a larger caliber absolutely bone stock cold war era POS?

I have not played with m4 lately, but m16 at least is much easier to control without foregrip, compared to AKM, which has been my main weapon as insurgent lately. I'm gonna test the m4 tomorrow.

This and the bot aim just kills this game, make this a priority please NWI, because this as of now is unplayable.

There's nothing here yet, just frustrated rant. Need more proof for a real case.

@tooth-decay As far as I know, the M16A4 in the CTA (as well as other 5.56 rifles) required three torso shots for Heavy Armor, while 7.62 weapons required two shots. Since 7.62 rifles fire slower, this made sense.

I'm pretty sure armor is modeled in some kind of realistic fashion. I don't believe it's a direct damage decrease like Ins2014.

Damage on an unarmored target drastically needs an increase. All intermediate-caliber rifles should one-shot a player with no armor.

The FAL one-shotting Heavy Armor is broken IMO if neither the G3A3 or even the M14 EBR has the same killing potential.

@sgt-kanyo said in Armor and damage model desperately needs a rework:

The SCAR-H is actually an always 2 shot to kill weapon (not counting the headshots obviously) and it doesn't disintegrate body parts like it did before.

I've heard that the SCAR-H can one-shot if it hits someone's arm and then their torso, but otherwise it's a 2HK.

@Depleted

Closed technical had issues of bullets not registering or just dealing no damage which made the gameplay rather poor

I had zero issues with hitreg in the CTA. For me, the hitreg/desync problems started happening in the first Closed Beta.

@Sgt-Kanyo

I've just realised that the Insurgent team is overpowered as hell due to unrealistic weapon behaviour.

The Insurgent team isn't overpowered at all. If somehow you can't kill someone with an M4A1 you're definitely fucking up somewhere.

The M4A1 has, for some reason, pretty damn low recoil. While the G36k supposedly has one extra point of vertical recoil, I can't control the full-auto fire even with a foregrip. I noticed this in the Tutorial. Meanwhile, I can laser someone at 40-50 meters with an M4 without any attachments.

That being said, the Insurgents have the "one-hit wonder FAL" so I wouldn't say Security is OP, but the M4 is still some bullshit.

last edited by MarksmanMax

@jensiii said in Armor and damage model desperately needs a rework:

@sgt-kanyo said in Armor and damage model desperately needs a rework:

I've just realised that the Insurgent team is overpowered as hell due to unrealistic weapon behaviour.

Overpowered as hell? Well, then they should have much higher win percentage for most of the players. I don't believe this claim the slightest bit.
Let's not forget the PKM for the Insurgents versus the M249. The M249 does not just use the same pathetic 5.56 damage model as the M4 and M16, but it also has insane amount of recoil. A recoil of a .50 cal sniper rifle, since players reported higher kick than the SVD.

Was in a PvP match as Team Security. Couldn't get a single effin kill with the M4 + aimpoint + foregrip. One of the insurgents was vaulting, so I opened fire, this time in full auto to see wether more bullets would give me a better chance. I ended up getting outgunned by a fucking 9mm.

What do you think was the real reason you lost that fight? I bet it's not because you were outgunned

By outgunned I wanted to emphasize that a sidearm, a fucking 9mm won over a modern AR. Now I don't know about you, but I haven't seen armies using 9mm pistols in real battles. If it was so powerful, and so easy to control they'd most definitely take a sidearm instead of ARs, since it weighs a lot less.

Next round same map, I'm on team haji with the AKM with ironsight NO foregrip. Easiest first 3 kills in a row I had while I wasn't even looking at the enemy.

You played two rounds and now you conclude that you have enough data to state that it's over powered.

I've had plenty of easy kills with m16 today, yesterday and the day before. M16 must be even more overpowered.

I haven't played 2 rounds. I've played 2 rounds today, I've played a shitton of COOP and a few PvP matches, noticing the same thing. 5.56 guns and the SCAR-H are NEVER and I mean NEVER 1 shot kills, not counting the headshots. Doesn't matter if you're going with a heavy armor or butt naked.

AKM seemed to be a 1 shot 1 kill weapon and more controllable than an XM8 irl. I got shot at 2 times from either an M16 or an M4 (definitely 5.56 by the sound of it) and it only damaged me. I was wearing light armor on both sides. Now what the actual fuck is this seriously. Are the 5.56 Security weapons firing blanks?

5.56 kill in two shots to the upper body even against heavy armor, unless shooting very far. You were most likely hit on limbs.

Like I mentioned before and others explained and proved this already a lot of times. 5.56 takes 2 shots, even with no armor, while a POS AK from 70 years ago kills instantly with dead accuracy. How is this realistic or here's a word gamers here love: --> balanced <--

And how is it possible that a lot more modern weapon with a foregrip is less controllable than a larger caliber absolutely bone stock cold war era POS?

I have not played with m4 lately, but m16 at least is much easier to control without foregrip, compared to AKM, which has been my main weapon as insurgent lately. I'm gonna test the m4 tomorrow.

This and the bot aim just kills this game, make this a priority please NWI, because this as of now is unplayable.

There's nothing here yet, just frustrated rant. Need more proof for a real case.
I don't feel like writing down the damage model statistics when others have already did. That's your proof.
I've explained the bot aim in a different thread.

i like the TTK where it's at the moment.

currently, you still see a lot of headless chickens that take no cover and just run... imagine if they could get away with more shots!

only thing i would investigate a bit more are sniper rifles not always killing with one shot and shotguns being too powerful at long range.

@sgt-kanyo said in Armor and damage model desperately needs a rework:

Let's not forget the PKM for the Insurgents versus the M249. The M249 does not just use the same pathetic 5.56 damage model as the M4 and M16, but it also has insane amount of recoil. A recoil of a .50 cal sniper rifle, since players reported higher kick than the SVD.

PKM has much higher recoil than M249 whether fired with or without bipod. When fired with bipod, M249 is more accurate than PKM with 2x scope or higher (tested).

M249, when a single shot is fired standing without bipod, indeed has higher kick than SVD, just tested it. So that is not in line with the caliber and the weight of an MG. PKM has even higher kick when fired without bipod. Most likely the reason is balancing of the gunner role, so they have harder time when they have not set up the MG.

By outgunned I wanted to emphasize that a sidearm, a fucking 9mm won over a modern AR. Now I don't know about you, but I haven't seen armies using 9mm pistols in real battles. If it was so powerful, and so easy to control they'd most definitely take a sidearm instead of ARs, since it weighs a lot less.

You were outaimed not outgunned. M4 kills in less shots than pistols and has higher fire rate, so there cannot be such thing as outgunned, only outaimed or something else (positioning etc.). It's okay, this happens to me as well, I get outaimed some times.

I haven't played 2 rounds. I've played 2 rounds today, I've played a shitton of COOP and a few PvP matches, noticing the same thing. 5.56 guns and the SCAR-H are NEVER and I mean NEVER 1 shot kills, not counting the headshots. Doesn't matter if you're going with a heavy armor or butt naked.

I agree that SCAR-H damage should be tweaked.

Like I mentioned before and others explained and proved this already a lot of times. 5.56 takes 2 shots, even with no armor, while a POS AK from 70 years ago kills instantly with dead accuracy. How is this realistic or here's a word gamers here love: --> balanced <--

AKM has higher recoil than M4, both unmodded. M4 with foregrip has almost half the recoil of an unmodded AKM. Just tested. M4 has higher fire rate.

I can't see the problem here, I find it to be believable and in balance. Some weapons might need minor tweaks. You had a bad day with M4. Don't blame the game.

And how is it possible that a lot more modern weapon with a foregrip is less controllable than a larger caliber absolutely bone stock cold war era POS?

It isn't, it's more controllable. Just tested.

I don't feel like writing down the damage model statistics when others have already did. That's your proof.

I've seen that stat already when it was originally posted, so I'm aware of that. Those stats proved to me that some guns need some tweaking, like SCAR-H. But I don't see the "overpowered insurgents" from those stats at all. Especially when you consider recoil and firerate of the weapons as well.

I've explained the bot aim in a different thread.

Yeah man this topic is what I agree with you, I also wrote a response in that thread. I wanted to make that clear.

last edited by jensiii

Well about Insurgents being OP, just think about it.

What do the insurgents have?
1 shot 1 kill LMG
1 shot 1 kill AR

What does Security have?
Cool helmets

Really irl Security would shit all over Insurgents. So I can't even begin to understand how team haji is more powerful in this game.

Also I don't really understand how you can control the M4 or M16 that good. I've been playing the M4 since beta, 90% of the time in single shot, so I can control it easily and it still kicks like a horse with foregrip. While in that specific round (I don't play Insurgents like ever) I was running around like a moron, shooting full auto with the AKM, jumping down buildings, running in front of the enemy and still I get the 3 easiest kills of my life. Something is very off here.
Same goes for the G36K which is supposed to be 1 of the most controllable ARs on the planet, it handles pretty much the same as the M4 in game.

last edited by Sgt.Kanyo

FAL, SVD and PKM are the top three weapons, uncontestably. For any range. All are Insurgent guns.

However, the gap isn't as wide as it was last patch as the damage has been reworked. Don't forget, the chart produced and posted last patch is no longer up to date.

That's true indeed. I noticed a massive amount of fixing for the new update, but the Security weapons still feel a bit less powerful, than what we had in the old Insurgency. Now sometimes if you're lucky, the 5.56 can kill a non-armored target in 1 shot, but other times it's still 2 shots. I've noticed the SCAR-H actually uses 7.62 damage values, but I still sometimes have to 2 shot people with it.
I hope these weapons can be further improved. I haven't taken a look at the insurgent weapons, since I'm a lazy piece of shit, and I also don't really much like those weapons.
I think the best option would be 5.56 at "long" range should be a 2 shot kill if it's up against a heavy armored target, any other case it's 1 shot 1 kill. (maybe not to the hands or feet, since that's kind of silly).
All 7.62 weapons should be 1 shot 1 kill at any range to any type of armor.

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